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Post by Horace on Nov 21, 2017 11:27:25 GMT
It is also worth pointing out this "gimmick" works both ways. You may not be able to shoot at the target you wish to because you do not want to alter your facing with the shooting pivot. I think this is the more likely outcome rather than some sort of fake out.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Nov 21, 2017 22:47:54 GMT
RAW, it is actually very straightforward. WoC AB p 42: "Doomfire is fired following the rules of a Stone Thrower." Very well, we go to BRB p. 114 with the rules of firing a Stone Thrower, which specify:
"To fire a stone thrower, take the small round (3") template and place it anywhere completely within the war machine's line of sight, outside of the stone thrower's minimum range and within its maximum range."
There is no reference at all in the rules of firing a Stone Thrower of a free pivot. Which is not a surprise, because, as I have pointed out elsewhere, the BRB specifies on p. 109: "before you fire the war machine, pivot it to face your chosen target (this doesn't count as moving)." This free pivot is only allowed for war machines before the actual firing sequence. It does not apply to units that fire following the rules of a Stone Thrower, but are not war machines themselves.
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Post by strutsagget on Nov 22, 2017 8:27:14 GMT
FvonSigmaringen how do you interpreter/run iron curse icon then? And how do you run it on for example a cannon mounted on a spider?
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Nov 22, 2017 8:55:56 GMT
As the Ironcurse Icon provides a "ward save against war machine weapons," it does not provide that ward against anything that is not a war machine. War machines are a specific Troop Type. The fact that something is called a cannon or stone thrower, or fires like one, does not mean it automatically is a war machine. Only units that are designated in their profile or special rules as "war machine" are war machines. Compare this to Wizards: there are a number of characters/units that have access to magic, but that still does not make them Wizards, unless they are specifically designated as such.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Nov 22, 2017 9:11:08 GMT
To add: there are some other rules specific to war machines (like CC and Panic) - I do not think anyone will be suggesting they apply to the Thundertusk or the the Spider - precisely because they are not war machines.
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Post by Horace on Nov 22, 2017 9:53:37 GMT
Speaking as a firmly RAI type of player, I must say I am kind of left a bit confused about what I really believe about this rule now, and also confused about how we will actually play it next time.
I am curious what everyone's opinion of the intention of this rule is
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Post by strutsagget on Nov 22, 2017 10:30:37 GMT
Horace so Am I for me when I am asking these questions it always great to know how people play it no matter how you interpreted RAW. As I bring in new armies to my group new situation will rise and I want to be able to add both fun and fair RAI rule to the group. So both personal RAI and RAW is interesting to me. In the end it’s about making a great game experience for everyone in my group and just to be clear before we start a game. For me nothing sucks more then spending(too much, a little is always fun) time arguing while playing or loosing because you thought the rule was differently.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Nov 22, 2017 13:57:55 GMT
Call me outlandish, but I would guess that the intention of the rule is that war machines can pivot in the Shooting phase...
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Post by avatarofbugman on Nov 22, 2017 15:17:06 GMT
So, that means my ironblaster ignores the iron curse icon, even though it is just a mounted cannon? That's a rough pill to swallow.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Nov 22, 2017 17:20:00 GMT
Well, as it happens they do not. I missed this:
Ogre Kingdoms Official Update Version 2.0
Q: Do the Scraplauncher Catapult, Cannon of the Skytitans and Sphere of Frost-wreathed Ice have the Slow to Fire special rule? In addition, can ward saves from the Ironcurse Icon be taken against Wounds caused by these weapons? (p49, 51, 55) A: Yes to both questions.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2017 17:34:11 GMT
so...if the ironcurse icon works against these weapons, and the ironcurse specifically says that it works against warmachines...are we to treat these types of weapons as warmachines now? To add: there are some other rules specific to war machines (like CC and Panic) - I do not think anyone will be suggesting they apply to the Thundertusk or the the Spider - precisely because they are not war machines. And I don't think anyone would or is arguing to allow these rules to apply to these weapons; we all know that these weapons only FIRE as if warmachines, nothing else about warmachines applies to them. I still haven't had my mind changed about the way that I play it though. The pivot exists at the beginning of the warmachine section because it's universal to all warmachines; they didn't feel the need to specify this condition at the beginning of every individual warmachine type in the rulebook. Although if they had then we wouldn't be having this conversation I suppose. I blame poor rule writing for this. My line of thinking: The unit fires AS IF a stone thrower/cannon. 1. Okay, well a stone thrower/cannon is a warmachine so I go to the warmachine section. 2. Warmachines are allowed to pivot before they fire. 3. Now I go to the specific section about that type of weapon and follow its more specific rules. I'm still going to continue to play it the way that I do. It's easier to just treat the item as a warmachine of it's type, whether it be a cannon or a stone thrower and allow any and all interactions with equipment/abilities to affect them as such.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Nov 22, 2017 17:44:54 GMT
You are on the right track, but draw the wrong conclusion:
BRb p. 108: The first part of rules pertains to the rules for the war machine troop type — essentially its chassis and crew — which apply to all war machines. The second part consists of the rules for how each specific type war machine fires (and how it slaughters your foe). [Italics mine]
So, the BRB itself specifically states that the first part of the rules (which include the pivot) pertains to the war machine troop type. Unless specified otherwise, it does not pertain to models that do not have the war machine troop type.
It seems we have to distinguish here between "war machine" (troop type) and "war machine weapon" (which can have a different troop type). The description of the Ironcurse Icon syas "ward save against war machine weapons."
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Post by gjnoronh on Nov 22, 2017 18:29:17 GMT
I haven't read the whole thread. On this page it appears I agree with FvonSigmaringen by and large.
Bottom line it's unfortunately an example where the lack of specificity in the 8th rules set makes it pretty unclear what the correct way to play.
I think the intent with Hellcannon was for them to be able to pivot etc like other warmachines and to have ironcurse icon apply. But I don't know that. The RAW indicates largely the opposite. We aren't given a definition of 'warmachine weapons.'
One really upside of what 9th Age has been doing is providing the standardized keywords that 8th lacked.
As to how I play it. Like a lot of things in 8th I explain to my opponent pregame where I am aware of lack of clarity in the rules set and decide how we want to play it for the day. I've generally set the hellcannon up in the corner of my deployment to get as wide of a field of fire as possible because of this ambiguity. When we agree to free pivot I'll put it more center. (I love it when someone charges it and realizes it's unbreakable with a dwarf ward save!)
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on Nov 22, 2017 20:23:19 GMT
My line of thinking: The unit fires AS IF a stone thrower/cannon. 1. Okay, well a stone thrower/cannon is a warmachine so I go to the warmachine section. 2. Warmachines are allowed to pivot before they fire. 3. Now I go to the specific section about that type of weapon and follow its more specific rules. Precisely. I've said it before and I'll say it again: Doomfire = Firing as a stone thrower = (general rules for firing a war machine + stone thrower rules) = Doomfire
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2017 20:25:22 GMT
I can understand the logic behind what you're saying Fvon, but I just can't give the rules writers at GW enough credit that they meant to distinguish between "warmachines" and "warmachine weapons". I've read and reread the sections on warmachines and I can see there being an argument that the two are separate, but I cannot believe for a moment that this was RAI.
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