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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on Nov 22, 2017 20:32:31 GMT
BRb p. 108: The first part of rules pertains to the rules for the war machine troop type — essentially its chassis and crew — which apply to all war machines. The second part consists of the rules for how each specific type war machine fires (and how it slaughters your foe). [Italics mine] So, the BRB itself specifically states that the first part of the rules (which include the pivot) pertains to the war machine troop type. Unless specified otherwise, it does not pertain to models that do not have the war machine troop type. You state: "Unless specified otherwise, it does not pertain to models that do not have the war machine troop type." The WoC army book does specify otherwise when it says that "Domefire is fired following the rules for a stone thrower". So while it is clearly not a warmachine, the instructions in the army book specifies that you must access and use those rules (without having to meet the unit type criteria outlined in the BRB; remember that army books overrride the BRB). I feel that in this case RAI and RAW are actually in alignment.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Nov 22, 2017 22:41:57 GMT
The WoC AB clearly does not specify otherwise. That reasoning completely misses the point (as well as the rules), so much so, that it must be intended. Please show me where in the rules for firing a Stone Thrower (p. 114-115) it says that it gets a free pivot in the Shooting Phase.
On the contrary, as spelled out above, the BRB specifies that the first part of the rules, including the pivot, pertains to the war machine troop type. Nothing in the WoC AB overrides this.
If you are saying that RAI and RAW are actually in alignment, then that is a typical case of RAI=Rules as Imagined.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Nov 22, 2017 22:49:20 GMT
I can understand the logic behind what you're saying Fvon, but I just can't give the rules writers at GW enough credit that they meant to distinguish between "warmachines" and "warmachine weapons". I've read and reread the sections on warmachines and I can see there being an argument that the two are separate, but I cannot believe for a moment that this was RAI. That is the problem with RAI. An adept of RAW will always be convinced by actual evidence. Indeed, as I have shown myself above, they usually will bring up the evidence themselves to change their position. But whatever the actual evidence, an adept of RAI can always say "I cannot believe this is RAI."
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Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2017 22:57:35 GMT
Agree to disagree? I don't know what you're talking about. At all.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Nov 22, 2017 23:19:00 GMT
Perhaps you could clarify that?
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Post by avatarofbugman on Nov 22, 2017 23:56:31 GMT
Here's a wrench. I would argue that the RAW actually has some conflicts. P. 109 says you pivot the warmachine to face your target. As written it seems that you do it at the moment of shooting. The bolt thrower entry says to choose a target like the normal rules for shooting (no pivot, technically). The cannon entry specifically states "Remember that war machines are allowed to pivot in the movement phase, the better to bring your chosen target into the weapon's line of sight." The fire and stone throwers just say any target in line of sight.
As written this tells me that stone throwers, fire throwers and bolt throwers can pivot in the shooting phase, but the cannon entry contradicts the rule on p.109 while simultaneously referring to all war machines, forcing a pivot in the movement phase only, and by inclusion this is true for all war machines.
I always have turned to face all my war machines in the movement phase, so I have no horse in this race.
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Post by avatarofbugman on Nov 23, 2017 0:58:15 GMT
Looking through the FAQ I see that the pivot is specifically in the shooting phase for the cannon. Therefore for all war machines. The FAQ also has this bit in it. It seems to me that if this applies to all war machines in the section, then it is a blanket firing rule that would apply even if an army book rule only refers to a specific war machine. This is written to universally apply, therefore it would extend beyond this page and is actually part of each warmachine's firing rules.
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on Nov 23, 2017 4:11:21 GMT
The WoC AB clearly does not specify otherwise. That reasoning completely misses the point (as well as the rules), so much so, that it must be intended. Please show me where in the rules for firing a Stone Thrower (p. 114-115) it says that it gets a free pivot in the Shooting Phase. On the contrary, as spelled out above, the BRB specifies that the first part of the rules, including the pivot, pertains to the war machine troop type. Nothing in the WoC AB overrides this. If you are saying that RAI and RAW are actually in alignment, then that is a typical case of RAI=Rules as Imagined. This is where you are mistaken (in my opinion). You requested that I show you where in the rules for firing a Stone Thrower (p. 114-115) it says that it gets a free pivot. Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your stance), the WoC AB states "Doomfire is fired following the rules for a stone thrower" and not "Doomfire is fired following the rules under the subheading Stone Throwers on pages 114-115". So I ask you this, if you wanted to fire a stone thrower what rules would you need to access? You'd need to access the rules that you specified in your post as well as the rules under the "Shooting with War Machines" subheading on page 109. It is those two sections that tell you how to fire a stone thrower, and since the Doomfire fires following the rules for a stone thrower, it to follows the rules described within both sections. The information posted by avatarofbugman seems to support the viewpoint I subscribe to.
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Post by avatarofbugman on Nov 23, 2017 4:22:41 GMT
The WoC AB clearly does not specify otherwise. That reasoning completely misses the point (as well as the rules), so much so, that it must be intended. Please show me where in the rules for firing a Stone Thrower (p. 114-115) it says that it gets a free pivot in the Shooting Phase. On the contrary, as spelled out above, the BRB specifies that the first part of the rules, including the pivot, pertains to the war machine troop type. Nothing in the WoC AB overrides this. If you are saying that RAI and RAW are actually in alignment, then that is a typical case of RAI=Rules as Imagined. This is where you are mistaken (in my opinion). You requested that I show you where in the rules for firing a Stone Thrower (p. 114-115) it says that it gets a free pivot. Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your stance), the WoC AB states "Doomfire is fired following the rules for a stone thrower" and not "Doomfire is fired following the rules under the subheading Stone Throwers on pages 114-115". So I ask you this, if you wanted to fire a stone thrower what rules would you need to access? You'd need to access the rules that you specified in your post as well as the rules under the "Shooting with War Machines" subheading on page 109. It is those two sections that tell you how to fire a stone thrower, and since the Doomfire fires following the rules for a stone thrower, it to follows the rules described within both sections. The information posted by avatarofbugman seems to support the viewpoint I subscribe to. That is why I posted it. The rules for firing warmachines includes that free pivot. Choosing too ignore that seems wrong. The helcannon gets a free pivot as well as anything else that says it fires like one of the warmachines.
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on Nov 23, 2017 4:28:01 GMT
That is the problem with RAI. An adept of RAW will always be convinced by actual evidence. Indeed, as I have shown myself above, they usually will bring up the evidence themselves to change their position. But whatever the actual evidence, an adept of RAI can always say "I cannot believe this is RAI." The problem with RAW is that it isn't nearly as objective as people would have you believe. RAW is predicated on the actual written rule, but that written rule uses language, and all language is subject to interpretation. However, if you are really a proponent of pure RAW, then I present to you the RAW Paradox: There are a couple of threads currently underway where the classic battle of RAW vs. RAI is being re-fought. I've always been a proponent of the necessity of commonsense and context within warhammer. Others believe in 100% RAW... even when it feels wrong, is against overwhelming contextual evidence and makes little sense. To each their own, but RAW seems widely accepted while RAI carries with it a negative stigma. RAW is looked at as being pure (which is impossible because interpretation is always involved in any type of communication) and RAI is considered to be no better than a simple personal opinion. Well the prophets have spoken, and the will of the Old Ones must be enacted. RAW must be exposed for what it is, and what better way than to "fight fire with fire". In this case, to use RAW to not only justify, but to actually mandate the use of RAI. To begin, what is RAW and RAI... RAW = Rules as Written
- is the literal meaning of the words, and sentences in the rule books
- viewed as an absolute
- independent of context, commonsense, logic, intuition
- supposedly devoid of personal opinion
- independent of RAI
- independent of contextual interpretation
RAI = Rules as Intended
- assumed meaning of a rule is based on logic, commonsense and contextual evidence
- meaning is derived from a collection of relevant evidence
- recognizes when wording is poorly chosen or misconstrued
- requires commonsense to be of any use
- not independent of RAW, RAW is part of the equation
- reliant on contextual interpretation
So now the RAW paradox. Let's look at the rules using strictly RAW... #1 - One rule to rule them all!
I direct you to page 2 of the BRB... "The Most Important Rule - In a game of the size and complexity of Warhammer, there are bound to be occasions where a situation is not covered by the rules, or you can't seem to find the right page. Even if you know the rule, sometimes it is just a really close call, and players don't agree on the precise outcome. Nobody wants to waste valuable gaming time arguing, so be prepared to interpret a rule or come up with a suitable solution for yourselves (in a manner befitting gentlemen, of course)...." #2 Establishing the pecking order
- According to RAW this rule is the one above all, it is more important than any other rule in the entirety of warhammer. Hence "The Most Important Rule" #3 Establishing when this rule comes into effect. -this rule applies anytime: - a situation is not covered by the rules
- you can't seem to find the right page for a rule
- a judgement of a rule is a really close call and players disagree
#4 Establishing what to do when the Most Important Rule is triggered
-when the Most Important Rule is triggered for any of the reasons listed above, players must... - be prepared to interpret a rule
- come up with a suitable solution for themselves
- if all else fails perform a dice roll off (this is found in the continuation of the quote I provided above)
#5 The paradox!
So the Most Important Rule comes into play when players disagree and you have a "really close call". Really close call is pretty hard to define, doesn't seem quite so objective as RAW is meant to be. What is meant by close? We are forced to interpret this for ourselves. Let's assume that we have a "really close call", RAW states that first thing for players to do is to be prepared to interpret a rule or come up with a suitable solution. So The Most Important rule is triggered when players interpret that it is required, and the rule states that players interpret the rule or create a suitable solution (only when this fails do you resort to a roll off). Guess what ladies and gentlemen... interpretations, creating realistic suitable solutions... this is RAI!!! So at the end of the day, pure 100% RAW at the highest of levels mandates the use of RAI. Hence there is no such thing as pure RAW because RAW itself dictates the use of RAI. RAW tells us that we can't rely purely on RAW... THE RAW PARADOX!
If after all this you still want to completely ignore RAI (which I am certain some people will)... then go ahead. As the old adage goes: "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink". But ask yourself why you are doing it? If you look at a rule and think, "I know how it should be played, but RAW says..." maybe you should discuss the actual "intended" meaning of the rule with your opponent. RAI does require a bit of maturity and honesty among players (with great power comes great responsibility!), but so does RAW. I've witnessed too many RAW vs RAW flame wars to maintain an sort of delusion of RAW's supposedly objective nature. No communication is free from the shackles of interpretation. If your friends or gaming group is okay with your stance (RAW, RAI or a combination) then use it and have fun. If you can't agree on it, avoid playing the player... because there is no point in playing unless both you and your opponent are having fun. Please note, that this RAI vs. RAW analysis does not apply to tournament play. There the T.O. sets the rules and makes the judgements... as it should be. T.O.'s are free to interpret the rules any way they see fit. If you disagree, don't play in the tournament. And as always... have a nice day!
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Post by Horace on Nov 23, 2017 9:08:09 GMT
The real problem is GW have written some pretty murky rules in some places where it is difficult to fathom both RAI and RAW
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Nov 23, 2017 9:36:14 GMT
Looking through the FAQ I see that the pivot is specifically in the shooting phase for the cannon. Therefore for all war machines. The FAQ also has this bit in it. It seems to me that if this applies to all war machines in the section, then it is a blanket firing rule that would apply even if an army book rule only refers to a specific war machine. This is written to universally apply, therefore it would extend beyond this page and is actually part of each warmachine's firing rules. I am well aware of this erratum, but it is irrelevant for the issue at hand. One should always make the actual changes in the text, which then reads: "Unless specified otherwise, all weapons in this section (and all other weapons mounted on war machines) have the Move or Fire and Slow to Fire special rules." And of course, the pivot is for all war machines. That is what I have been pointing out from the start.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Nov 23, 2017 9:43:35 GMT
The WoC AB clearly does not specify otherwise. That reasoning completely misses the point (as well as the rules), so much so, that it must be intended. Please show me where in the rules for firing a Stone Thrower (p. 114-115) it says that it gets a free pivot in the Shooting Phase. On the contrary, as spelled out above, the BRB specifies that the first part of the rules, including the pivot, pertains to the war machine troop type. Nothing in the WoC AB overrides this. If you are saying that RAI and RAW are actually in alignment, then that is a typical case of RAI=Rules as Imagined. This is where you are mistaken (in my opinion). You requested that I show you where in the rules for firing a Stone Thrower (p. 114-115) it says that it gets a free pivot. Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your stance), the WoC AB states "Doomfire is fired following the rules for a stone thrower" and not "Doomfire is fired following the rules under the subheading Stone Throwers on pages 114-115". So I ask you this, if you wanted to fire a stone thrower what rules would you need to access? You'd need to access the rules that you specified in your post as well as the rules under the "Shooting with War Machines" subheading on page 109. It is those two sections that tell you how to fire a stone thrower, and since the Doomfire fires following the rules for a stone thrower, it to follows the rules described within both sections. The information posted by avatarofbugman seems to support the viewpoint I subscribe to As I have pointed out already a couple of times before (and which you seem to ignore): the Doomfire is fired following the rules for a stone thrower. The pivot takes place before you fire. This tallies perfectly with something else you choose to ignore: what the BRB expressis verbis tells us in p. 108: " The first part of rules pertains to the rules for the war machine troop type — essentially its chassis and crew — which apply to all war machines. The second part consists of the rules for how each specific type war machine fires (and how it slaughters your foe)." Regarding avataofbugman: see above.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Nov 23, 2017 9:57:21 GMT
Your characterisation of RAW versus RAI seems very much a biased caricature and a complete straw man. And as always... have a nice day!
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Post by avatarofbugman on Nov 23, 2017 14:00:21 GMT
Fvon,
A couple of things. I posted the FAQ for all, not as a shot at you. Also, it most certainly is applicable as it changes it to how the weapon fires, which is what the rule on the p.108 lumps into the "second part". That change in verbiage is significant. If it had stayed as"warmachine" then I would argue that it means only that troop type, but since it is changed to weapon that means it is not talking about the chassis or crew as in p. 108. Also, p. 108 merely states that it is explaining how to manipulate the crew and chassis and p. 109 has how to manipulate before shooting.
I have seen no evidence from you that what it says on p.109 does not apply as a rule that is essentially repeated for each war machine entry to follow.
Again, I do it all during movement so I remain unaffected.
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