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Post by mottdon on Nov 7, 2017 19:52:00 GMT
Okay, since I made my Dwarf list, I've been trying to compile a High Elf list for a friend of mine to play using my army. I think that we'll be doing this quite a bit over the next few months. I'm trying to compile a list that will be fun, competitive, and not abuse certain objects (like the Cloak of Beards, BotWD, etc.). So far, here's what I've come up with. Let me know what you think.
Lords:
Alith Anar - 250 Loremaster (Book of Hoeth, Talisman of Preservation) - 330 [My thinking here is that he won't need the Lv4 to provide that extra boost of dispel power, and having all 8 signature spells will give him plenty of options to play with. Plus, he can be a nice addition to a unit of Swordmasters!]
Heroes:
Sea Helm (Skycutter, Bow, Enchanted Shield) - 204 [I want this guy so that he can have some very mobile charging threat.) Noble (BSB, Heavy Armor, White Lion Cloak, Shield of the Merwyrm, Dragonbane Gem, Reaver Bow) - 148
Core:
60 Spearmen (FC, Standard of Discipline) - 580 30 Lothern Sea Guard (FC) - 360 10 Archers - 100
Special:
12 Shadow Warriors (Shadow-walker) - 178 29 Swordmasters (FC) - 420 Skycutter (Eagle Eye Bolt Thrower) - 120 2 Lion Chariots - 240 Tiranoc Chariot - 70
Rare:
4 Eagle Claw Bolt Throwers - 280 2 Great Eagles - 100 Flamespyre Phoenix - 225 Frostheart Phoenix - 240 11 Sisters of Avelorn - 154
Total: 3999
How's that look?
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Post by KevinC on Nov 7, 2017 22:27:15 GMT
Core:
60 Spearmen (FC, Standard of Discipline) - 580
How's that look?The list looks good, but I'm not convinced about this. I'd rather have 2-3 smaller units of Elves. I find spearmen work well in units of 24, 6x4 formation, every model can attack. Your army would be more effect with several smaller units of spearmen rather than one big one.
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Post by mottdon on Nov 7, 2017 22:38:28 GMT
Well, first two ranks attack, third because HE, fourth because Spears, fifth because horde formation....that's 50 rerollable attacks! The last ten, to soak up wounds. That's gotta hurt! Especially if he gets something like Wyssan's off on them, or one of the other 8 lore signatures. Anyway, I don't really know of any other reason to take Spearmen other than the sheer volume of attacks. I suppose I could save the last ten and take another unit of Archers. I'm also afraid that versus Dwarfs, if they don't have the volume of attacks against them, they'll lose individual combats. That's what I was thinking anyway...
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Post by KevinC on Nov 8, 2017 2:46:55 GMT
Well, first two ranks attack, third because HE, fourth because Spears, fifth because horde formation....that's 50 rerollable attacks! The last ten, to soak up wounds. That's gotta hurt! Especially if he gets something like Wyssan's off on them, or one of the other 8 lore signatures. Anyway, I don't really know of any other reason to take Spearmen other than the sheer volume of attacks. I suppose I could save the last ten and take another unit of Archers. I'm also afraid that versus Dwarfs, if they don't have the volume of attacks against them, they'll lose individual combats. That's what I was thinking anyway... --------Pretty solid.
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Post by henning on Nov 8, 2017 3:07:31 GMT
I don’t know about this list. I am not a high elf player but I feel it lacks a bit of... Oompf.
My money would be on the dwarf list. 100 S4 shots will decimate the seaguard and swordmasters and if the boltthrowers don’t kill the copters quick then the spearmen are in real trouble too. The rest of the dwarf infantry should not have a problem mopping up.
Only real threats I see are the two phoenixes but at 4000 points their impact will be reduced vs say a 2500 point list
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2017 14:57:39 GMT
At 4000 points there's no real reason to not bring along a lvl 4 mage. I'd bring along a shadow mage to complement your loremaster, that way you can get some punch into your spears in the form of mindrazor (opponents will fear this and will give you a psychological edge) or hexing their T to allow you to wound better.
Other than that I like the list it looks pretty solid. I'd also maybe consider a smallish unit of white lions with the flaming banner to act as monster hunters. Failing that Dragon Princes.
That reminds me; you don't have any chaff! Where's the Reavers!?
EDIT: I realize you're playing against Dwarves so no real monsters, so take this advice with a grain of salt. I don't build lists with specific enemies in mind I MUCH prefer take-all-comers lists.
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Post by mottdon on Nov 8, 2017 16:07:36 GMT
At 4000 points there's no real reason to not bring along a lvl 4 mage. I'd bring along a shadow mage to complement your loremaster, that way you can get some punch into your spears in the form of mindrazor (opponents will fear this and will give you a psychological edge) or hexing their T to allow you to wound better. Other than that I like the list it looks pretty solid. I'd also maybe consider a smallish unit of white lions with the flaming banner to act as monster hunters. Failing that Dragon Princes. That reminds me; you don't have any chaff! Where's the Reavers!? EDIT: I realize you're playing against Dwarves so no real monsters, so take this advice with a grain of salt. I don't build lists with specific enemies in mind I MUCH prefer take-all-comers lists. I typically do too, but in this case, I'll be playing the Dwarfs and I wanted to allow my opponent to play to their weaknesses (to some degree), thus the reason there is no chaff really. HE will definitely have the advantage when it comes to movement. (95% of my HE lists include 2-3 units of Reavers. ) I also didn't include a Lv4 because of 1) points, 2) over-the-top, one-sided magic, 3) it's what everyone always does, and 4) I really just wanted to use Alith Anar and my Loremaster. Probably a bad idea, but this is just a friendly game and I wanted to try something a little different. I think the biggest threat to HE will be the Gyrocopters. The Bolt Throwers and magic missiles should be a good counter for them though. Other than that, the flying units like the Sea Helm in the Skycutter will probably have to chase them down. I wasn't sure about the Lion Chariots and Tiranoc Chariot though. My thinking was something that was highly mobile and could hit hard on the charge. Might be a mistake, but I just don't really know. The Shadow Warriors are another uncertainty. Not sure how effective they'll be. Since they'll probably be escorting Alith Anar mostly, where should the come in? Should they anchor the army with Alith's Ld10 as general, or try hitting a flank of the Dwarfs? Alith's arrows will count as bolt thrower shots, so that could be some nasty penetration from behind their lines?
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Post by mottdon on Nov 8, 2017 21:29:33 GMT
Okay, I gave the list another go, because as you said, henning, it felt a little weak. Here's the revised list:
Lords: Alith Anar - 250 (Cheapest Ld10 General outside a virtually naked generic Prince, plus the guy carries a virtual bolt thrower!)
Heroes: Dragon Mage of Caledor (Lv2, Dragon Armor, Ruby Ring of Ruin, Golden Crown of Atrazar) - 430 [Flameswords, Fireballs, bigger Fireballs and Fire breath attack) Noble (BSB, Heavy Armor, Enchanted Shield, White Lion Cloak, Reaver Bow) - 133 [BSB rerolls nestled in with Sea Guard or Archers] Noble (Shadow Armor, Shield, Longbow) - 102 (He'll go with the Shadow Warriors to give them a little extra punch. Can't simply ignore them now.)
Core: 50 Spearmen (FC, Standard of Discipline) - 495 30 Lothern Sea Guard (FC) - 360 15 Archers - 150
Special: 12 Shadow Warriors (Shadow-walker) - 178 15 Swordmasters (FC) - 225 15 Swordmasters (FC) - 225 2 Lion Chariots of Chrace - 240 10 Dragon Princes of Caledor (FC, Star Lance, Banner of Swiftness) - 365
Rare: 4 Eagle Claw Bolt Throwers - 280 2 Great Eagles - 100 Flamespyre Phoenix - 225 Frostheart Phoenix - 240
Total: 3998 Let me know if you think this is better or worse. Any changes? Any obvious misses? Thanks, fellas!
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Post by henning on Nov 9, 2017 3:43:54 GMT
I like this list more Mottdon. Sorry, I can't add much more of value. The 2 armies seem quite close now. Dwarfs may have trouble dealing with all the monsters though only the frosty is T6, so not impossible. Would be an interesting battle
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Post by Horace on Nov 9, 2017 6:44:33 GMT
I Think you may find the spearmen bounce off the dawi, 5s to wound and heavily armoured troops do not agree with them. If I was him I would be shooting those swordmasters off asap and my cannon would be lining up the frostheart. Also dwarfs do not enjoy the lore of metal
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Post by henning on Nov 9, 2017 7:45:44 GMT
Dwarfs have no cannon in their list
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Post by Horace on Nov 9, 2017 8:45:12 GMT
Oh I see now, well that Dwarf list has lots of points invested in counter magic, so a multipurpose Loremaster makes sense. The Dwarfs are really going to struggle to remove all those monsters and chariots
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Post by grandmasterwang on Nov 9, 2017 15:12:17 GMT
I actually prefer the first list.
I like the chariots and the 60 spears. To have a chance of actually getting 50 reroll attacks you need the bodies.
A decent HE player at my local GW actually ran the spearhorde quite often with mixed results (Regardless of results it looks fricking awesome). This was back at the height of 8th edition so I'm somewhat familiar with the HE spearhorde. When he got it working it shredded enemies but it excelled when buffed so he played around this concept/based his list on this. Buffed or not buffed the HE spears will beat the dwarf hammerers head to head. Meanwhile Ironbreakers crush them solidly.
The thing is re: list 2, with the dragon mage I don't see how the spear mega block and dragon mage (both expensive points) really compliment each other. They are both cool in their own right but to me don't really suit being in the same list. Loremaster from list 1 has imo more potential.
Dwarf list has no war machines so the 3 chariots could be very effective.
Just my 2c
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Post by mottdon on Nov 9, 2017 15:33:34 GMT
Yeah, I didn't want to bring the "typical" lists. The monsters are the reason for all the GW Dwarfs. I'd think twice before sending my monsters into high-WS, high-S units. Especially when there are multiple units with GW that could flank. Plus, with Miners coming in (possibly behind their lines), that could be potentially problematic. That was my thinking at least. Four Eagle Claw Bolt Throwers (assuming he spreads them out across the back) could be trouble for the Dwarfs since they'd have to either spend a lot of resources chasing them down, or ignoring them completely. That'll probably also mean that I'll have to devote at least part of my air-force to deal with them. Even if I do that, my Dwarfs will have to be concerned about the Phoenixes and the Dragon countering them. I don't think that a Gyrocopter can win a match-up versus a Phoenix! I didn't want to invest too much into a Mage, rather, it was the Dragon that I was after. The Mage rider simply served a "magic phase" purpose. I wasn't really trying to capitalize on magic, but I still wanted to give him a chance to do something. Personally, I like the inclusion of the Loremaster better, simply because he has so many spell options and if the Dwarfs managed to destroy 2 of his spells, he'd still have 6 to call upon, but how many games do you actually get to include a Dragon without taking up most of your available points?!? Lol, it's all just for fun anyway. Some of my best games have been Dwarfs vs HE. They have ALWAYS been close games. This is a BatRep a friend of mine made years ago right after the 8th Dwarf army book came out. I was trying out a lot of the "new" units. We made tons of mistakes (this is when I was still new and learning the game, and little did I know at the time, but my opponent tended to bend the rules in his favor - we eventually stopped playing because of this.) but for the most part, it was a good game. (He really screws up a main close combat near the end of the game. Just remember, I was trying to learn from him and accepting his direction at the time.) Most of the HE in the video are mine (Spearmen, Phoenix Guard, Flamespyre Phoenix, etc.) that he was borrowing at the time. He was only starting his HE army. This has been his most viewed video though, so there's something to be said for that. There are several other videos of our games in his channel as well. youtu.be/XsHBfdMS0Ho
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Post by mottdon on Nov 9, 2017 15:52:28 GMT
I actually prefer the first list. I like the chariots and the 60 spears. To have a chance of actually getting 50 reroll attacks you need the bodies. A decent HE player at my local GW actually ran the spearhorde quite often with mixed results (Regardless of results it looks fricking awesome). This was back at the height of 8th edition so I'm somewhat familiar with the HE spearhorde. When he got it working it shredded enemies but it excelled when buffed so he played around this concept/based his list on this. Buffed or not buffed the HE spears will beat the dwarf hammerers head to head. Meanwhile Ironbreakers crush them solidly. The thing is re: list 2, with the dragon mage I don't see how the spear mega block and dragon mage (both expensive points) really compliment each other. They are both cool in their own right but to me don't really suit being in the same list. Loremaster from list 1 has imo more potential. Dwarf list has no war machines so the 3 chariots could be very effective. Just my 2c Thanks for the input! Those are some good points! Typically, Shadow Magic works wonders with Spearmen. Mindrazor in particular. With the Dragon Mage, I could always give them the Flaming Sword of Rhuin, which would help them a little as well, especially since the Dragon Mage is guaranteed to generate that spell first (comes with him - and you can always default for Fireball with your other roll = the 2 best spells in the lore). The Loremaster on the other hand has just so many good spells to choose from! The Hammerers vs Spearmen is a good point! Hammerers only have a 5+ armor save versus 50 rerollable attacks! That'll definitely hurt them! But yeah, Ironbreakers would break their back with a 3+ armor save and a 5++ parry (4++ on the turn they are charged!). Plus, with Belegar on his Oath Stone in there, they'll get that from every side. They also have a base S4 attack, so they'll hit back hard, with the Spearmen only getting a 6+ armor save versus them. Bolt Throwers would be their bane though. I would be curious to see how well the Chariots would do as well. With Dwarfs trouble with movement, HE should be able to get favorable match-ups for charges.
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