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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2017 21:58:25 GMT
Hey all, Having never faced one of these things before I'm wondering how you WoC players deal with them. It's essentially T6 with a 1+ armor save and 10 wounds; oh and it's unbreakable. Here are some of the things I've been thinking of doing: Searing Doom - my force is tzeentch themed so any way to sneak a few wounds on to it before combat starts is nice. wounding on a 2+ and not giving it a save is peachy. I'll have two castings of this in my 5000 point list. High S attacks (obviously) - WoC have plentiful access to S5 but it's really the characters that can easily go above that. Sure there are knights with lances but that's one turn and then you're S4 from then on out. This guy is the main reason I'm trying to make sure that I have a character in each unit that can be S6 or higher. The thing is unbreakable and I'm not too worried about its ability to kill things (I think the cannon will be the biggest threat) but I do worry about it's ability to basically 'nope' a unit out of the game. Even if it dies or survives with a couple wounds left if it's tied up a unit all game then it's worth it. I've got a giant in the list I think it would be pretty good against this guy but I'm pretty sure I'll be staring down multiple cannons so he most likely won't survive past turn 2. Anyone got any tips or tricks? I'm thinking about squeezing out some points for a small troll unit (4-8 models) and using their vomit attack to slowly whittle the thing down. Dragon Ogres with great weapons (how I always run them) are also great here. I've got shadow magic although it's only a lvl2 so if I manage to get the one where I can hex the T of the enemy that will be another tool in my toolbox for dealing with it. Also Chaos Warriors with mindrazor would effectively take it out. I'm thinking maybe I should switch out a lvl 2 Tzeentch wizard for a lvl 2 shadow so I can double my chances of getting something decent on shadow. Thoughts? While I'm at it and have your attention...target priority for hellcannons? I'm thinking stanks could be a good target, also large blocks of infantry as it's a S5 template. I don't see it doing well against things like knights or demigryphs except for the one guy under the hole who will be murdered. And I've never been successful trying to use stone throwers as counter-battery fire for warmachines. And I'm in NO WAY worried about enemy warmachine hunters but I could try and pick on the chaff....I'm thinking I should try and panic a flank or two off the board. Forcing a panic check just from suffering a casualty is a powerful tool in the toolbox. I haven't played with a Hellcannon in a long time  |
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Post by Naitsabes on Dec 7, 2017 22:40:39 GMT
thoughts you want?
- Steam tanks are random movers. So, depending on how you play the 'virtual' pivot or not, you can railroad them to essentially just go straight ahead. Even if you play this a little bit loos-goosy, he still won't be able to charge around one of your units to hit another one. So, if you shove something with lots of wounds in his face (like those marauder foot). he'll spend the game grinding through those, not doing anything else. Note: Due to the quirky rules he will grind only on his turn, not on yours. so, that's maybe on average ~6 wounds per GAME turn. manageable if you make sure that is not six wounds of chosen. Note that the grinding wounds are caused in the shooting phase so you don't even have to worry about losing combat all that much.
- yes on hell cannon. steam tanks don't like taking D6 wounds. But, as you pointed out the S5 template could also put a hurting on much else in the Empire army (poor greatswords), not to mention panicking units of the board that are outside the leadership bubble. I think your targeting priorities will be situational.
- yes on searing doom
- shadow magic you say...*cough* pit of shade *cough*
- S5 attacks from a character aren't that great. you still need to hit first, then wound on 5, then he saves on 3.
- if you do wound the steam tanks it gets weaker in the sense that it is more likely to have a malfunction. The internet claims it becomes a paper weight after taking a couple wounds, I don't think that is true. Yes it may malfunction almost every turn but, some results on that table will still allow the tank to do stuff.
- if he is shooting the cannon you should be happy and thank the dark goods. it's only one cannon ball coming out of 250pts, not two.
- the tank (like many other things) becomes really bad-ass when he can combo-charge with something else that breaks your steadfast. On the first turn he will cause a lot of impact hits. Don't let it happen.
- you can tie it up for a turn pretty easily with chaff. e.g. a unit of dogs. if you charge, he only has a measly single S3 attack back at you so your dogs should not break. on his turn he will then grind you to bone meal but...that means he hasn't moved on to something important.
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Post by mottdon on Dec 7, 2017 23:04:49 GMT
Personally, I'd focus on getting a couple of wounds off the Stanks with Searing Doom. Once you get 4-5 wounds on the Stank, you can pretty much write it off. After it takes 5 wounds, it's chance to hurt itself exponentially increases! More than likely, it'll either blow up, just sit there, or not be able to generate enough Steam Points to do anything. I wouldn't worry about them too much. If you have to, chaff it up.
I'm usually in favor of doubling up on a specific lore with lv2s.
As for targets for your Hellcannon, I'd go after his infantry. Greatswords, Halberdiers, Crazies. Pretty much in that order.
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Post by skavendan on Dec 8, 2017 0:29:11 GMT
A disk rider or similar survivable hero who is S6-7 can tie it up all game. Then just kill everything around. Or take metal magic and kill it.
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Post by wilsonthenarc on Dec 8, 2017 0:48:33 GMT
Steam Tanks are my LEAST favorite unit in 8th edition.
--You can't flee from it!?? No, it just engages, end of story.
--It's cannon is S10??! C'Mon man... give it a tuned down S6 cannon.
That said, there are 100% ways to beat it. Some good ones are listed.
A unit of 20 to 30 Skeletons or Zombies can also do the job.
Go ahead, grind them... more will take their place.
And they're unlikely to ever lose combat proper against a Steam Tank.
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Post by mottdon on Dec 8, 2017 12:09:29 GMT
Another thing, whenever I do take a Stank nowadays, I usually only do so for a couple of reasons.
First is it's psychological factor. People hate the thing and fear it on the table top. It can deny an entire flank alone because people don't want to engage it.
Secondly, I use it to tie up units I simply don't want to deal with. It's costly at 250 points, but in 5000 point games, it doesn't break the bank. And those big, scary deathstars almost always cost so much more. It can usually last several rounds at least. Long enough for that big point sink to be much more less effective than it was intended to be. Keeping this in mind, watch out for where he places them. Don't give him a chance to tie up that huge Throgg Troll horde, etc.
Third, it's another leagal cannon. If he takes a gunline army (and you very well could be facing a LOT of cannons) then it's another cannon, forcing you to come to him. And since it's a tank, it can guard his vulnerable artillery while still blasting away at you. Don't forget, the Luminark is essentially a magical cannon too.
Stanks can be dealt with. The thing I'd be more concerned about if I were you is the War Altar and Light Council. They'll target your big bad Deamons with two Banishment spells. The bound spell from the War Altar is the one you have to look out for. He'll probably 6-dice that one since it's be S7 and will suffer no miscast, being a bound spell. That's where I'd target my Hellcannons. Maybe you'll get lucky and take out a wizard or two, weakening the Banishment spell.
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Post by askaval30 on Dec 8, 2017 14:14:32 GMT
Steam Tanks... faced them about five or six times with my Warriors. They are annoying but not as terrible as they set out to be, the trick is to to inflict a couple of wounds on them to make their steam point choice risky.
Most battles the steam tank was either sitting there like a paperweight or had become a steaming crater on the ground.
The one thing you should look out for is if he has a Lore of Life Wizard in the vicinity to regenerate those wounds...
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Post by mottdon on Dec 8, 2017 14:19:11 GMT
Steam Tanks... faced them about five or six times with my Warriors. They are annoying but not as terrible as they set out to be, the trick is to to inflict a couple of wounds on them to make their steam point choice risky. Most battles the steam tank was either sitting there like a paperweight or had become a steaming crater on the ground. The one thing you should look out for is if he has a Lore of Life Wizard in the vicinity to regenerate those wounds... Yeah, you should probably discuss whether or not you are going to allow that in your game. Some people are vehemently opposed to using life to restore wounds on the Stank. I suppose if you don't care about it, then it's no big deal though. Another thing I just thought about, if your opponent deploys it on a flank, you can basically ignore it. It's slow. The battle can easily escape it. But if he deploys it in the center of his lines (or near) then you'll more than likely be forced to deal with it. Magic it with Metal magic and hope he pushes it and it blows up in among his lines. These are reasons why I simply don't take Stanks anymore. HBVGs are waaaay more effective. Especially against hordes. |
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Dec 8, 2017 14:40:30 GMT
I think people may be confusing several editions. It is true that in 7th edition the Steam Tank became a useless pile of junk after it was down to 5 wounds or less. That is not the case anymore, because now you get to roll on a Mishap table, and as long as you you do not generate more than 4 Steam Points, the Mishap results are not too bad,in particular as they currently seem to allow armour saves. In fact, there is no reason ever to generate more than 4 Steam Points, unless you go for a SVBIED.
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Post by wilsonthenarc on Dec 8, 2017 15:11:13 GMT
I think people may be confusing several editions. It is true that in 7th edition the Steam Tank became a useless pile of junk after it was down to 5 wounds or less. That is not the case anymore, because now you get to roll on a Mishap table, and as long as you you do not generate more than 4 Steam Points, the Mishap results are not too bad,in particular as they currently seem to allow armour saves. In fact, there is no reason ever to generate more than 4 Steam Points, unless you go for a SVBIED. I thought the same thing. I recently played against a Steam Tank that had 1, then 2, then 4, then more wounds on it. It never blew up. And the rolls weren't outlandishly lucky. He just kept rolling a 2 or 4 on the Artillery dice. When he did a roll a 10, he rolled on another chart... and then nothing really bad happened. Even then: my main beef with the Steam Tank is how it gets in to combat. Unfair. Breaks like 2 cardinal rules of the game!!! (1) Doesnt need line of sight, (2) the target gets no REACTION. Whaaaaa wha wha wha wha  I am a crybaby |
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on Dec 8, 2017 15:14:54 GMT
Yeah, you should probably discuss whether or not you are going to allow that in your game. Some people are vehemently opposed to using life to restore wounds on the Stank. I suppose if you don't care about it, then it's no big deal though. What is the rationale for not allowing the Stank to be healed? I've never come across that before. |
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Post by mottdon on Dec 8, 2017 15:18:53 GMT
I've heard people argue that you can't heal a machine. Kinda like healing a piece of artillery. I'm sure Fidelis has heard these arguments too. I'm not arguing in favor of not healing it (personally I don't see anything wrong with it), but I've heard people gripe about it before. I think people just don't want the Stank to do well. If it didn't have 10 wounds, I don't think that people would mind it as much.
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Post by Horace on Dec 8, 2017 15:27:30 GMT
I think people may be confusing several editions. It is true that in 7th edition the Steam Tank became a useless pile of junk after it was down to 5 wounds or less. That is not the case anymore, because now you get to roll on a Mishap table, and as long as you you do not generate more than 4 Steam Points, the Mishap results are not too bad,in particular as they currently seem to allow armour saves. In fact, there is no reason ever to generate more than 4 Steam Points, unless you go for a SVBIED. I thought the same thing. I recently played against a Steam Tank that had 1, then 2, then 4, then more wounds on it. It never blew up. And the rolls weren't outlandishly lucky. He just kept rolling a 2 or 4 on the Artillery dice. When he did a roll a 10, he rolled on another chart... and then nothing really bad happened. Even then: my main beef with the Steam Tank is how it gets in to combat. Unfair. Breaks like 2 cardinal rules of the game!!! (1) Doesnt need line of sight, (2) the target gets no REACTION. Whaaaaa wha wha wha wha I am a crybaby Just a fancy pump wagon |
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Dec 8, 2017 16:38:34 GMT
Even then: my main beef with the Steam Tank is how it gets in to combat. Unfair. Breaks like 2 cardinal rules of the game!!! (1) Doesnt need line of sight, (2) the target gets no REACTION. The Steam Tank has the same movement rules as all Random Movers. I am not sure that a LoS requirement would make that much of a difference, also given the hight of the Steam Tank. In any case, the Random Movement rule is often misunderstood. The sequence (BRB p. 74) is: 1. Pivot the centre of the Random Mover to face the direction in which you wish it to travel. 2. Roll the dice shown in the model's profile. 3. Measure the distance in a straight line to see whether you come into contact with an enemy (before actually moving!) 3.a If the (measured) move is found to take the unit into contact with an enemy this counts as charging, and this is resolved using the normal rules for charges and using the distance rolled as its charge range, i.e. move in a straight line with one free wheel of 90° to get into contact with the enemy, and then either you or the enemy closes the door. During this charge, you can also move to within 1" of other units. 3.b If no charge is made, move the model directly forwards a number of inches equal to the total rolled by the dice. If the random move brings the unit to within 1" of a friendly unit or impassable terrain, it stops immediately and cannot move further during that Movement phase. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2017 17:03:53 GMT
Thanks for all the replies everyone! Definitely some stuff I'm going to consider. He has mentioned light magic as well I didn't think about the light coven so it sounds like I may have to deal with that as well.
Looks like I know what my Hellcannons will be doing.
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I am a crybaby
