What did WFB have that other GW games lack?
Dec 11, 2017 16:02:21 GMT
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KevinC, wilsonthenarc, and 2 more like this
Post by magicjuggler on Dec 11, 2017 16:02:21 GMT
I think this is an interesting discussion, because with GW abandoning WFB while subjecting 40k to similar (though lessened) Sigmarization, I think this is now a good time to discuss the relative strengths of Fantasy.
We know of the weaknesses of course. Magic has always been an extreme crapshoot one way or another. Whether it was the "Quadratic gain for linear investment" of 6th ed/7th ed Power Dice generation (as well as hordes of zombies), or the "throw as many power dice on that Purple Sun" of 8th, the game has had its share of oddness. Morale has been "all or nothing" (the addition of a third result "shaken" between "pass/routed" was one of the things I like about Kings of War), either being "relatively irrelevant," or exploitable: Remember Terrorbombing? And of course, 8e Cannons led to monsters being marginalized even as GW continued to release many extremely kitbashable monsters!
But rather than discuss those flaws ("How could WFB have been saved" can easily be its own topic), I think this thread is a good one to discuss the strengths it did have:
-You got to do something in your opponent's turn: For me, this is the big one. One thing I hate about IGOUGO is the large downtime where only one player is actually making player choices. Compared to 8th 40k where Overwatch is just a "free action," in WFB, you had the choice between Overwatch or Fleeing. While 40k has struggled with its own Denial system, Fantasy let you choose what to dispel, let through, burn scrolls on, etc. Some items or powers let you convert dispel dice into power dice, adding an extra layer of thought to the whole affair. While I would enjoy a more unified "action/reaction" system (or even some form of Alternating Activation), a game of WFB felt a lot faster than its space counterpart...though the movement trays admittedly helped with that.
-Flanking meant something: One thing I did like about 2nd and 7th 40k was that casualty allocation was "closest model first." Thus, if you managed to encircle your foe, you could have a better shot at eliminating sergeants, heavy weapons, etc, or to negate linear cover. In other editions of 40k, flanking does little by comparison, as your foe gets to allocate casualties, and cover tends to be independent of the angle of attack (whether it's overly generous ala 5th or stingy ala 8th). But beyond this and some Armor Facings, flanking meant very little in 40k. By contrast, flanking in Fantasy let you marchblock, deny CR, set up panic chains with Burning Head or Firethrowers, or just straight-up harass your foe in general ("Cowboy" Goblins are funny for this).
-Maneuver and sacrificing units was more proactive: If you look at a 40k or Sigmar game, you notice it tends to devolve into a midfield scrum/pile-in. Any unit can materialize anywhere on the table, as long as they're 9.1" away. Thus, the closest you got to a sacrificial game was taking a few large units of chaff, plopping them in front of your big guns, and calling it a day. By contrast, you could sacrifice units to set up flanks, or force charge redirects ("Nice Chariots of Khorne you have. Shame if they would need to Overrun into those trees...").
-Remembering the Little Guys: WFB 8th was mocked for the majority of their codexes being heavily copypasted, with the majority of new units being Monsters of some sort. Similarly, 40k 6th added the Riptide, Wraithknight, Centurions and Imperial Knights, while 7th 40k went "Yeah, you can field a Baneblade in a pickup game." However, in Fantasy there was a similar emphasis on "regiments", groups of mortal humans (or elves or dwarfs or whathaveyou) that were renowned for their skills or wargear rather than being in giant mecha. The 8th ed Ogre Kingdoms Rulebook has what may be my favorite rule ever published by GW: "Been There, Done That." A unit of Ogre Maneaters could choose 2 Special Rules from a pool of 8th, but no Special Rule could be chosen by more than one unit of Maneaters. This ability by itself, while infamous for introducing Poison Sniper Double Ogre Pistol Maneaters, was both thematically cool and just fun since you could also fill in the fluff for how your Ogres became such renowned shots!
Finally, from a fluff standpoint, Fantasy had a sense of scale and perspective. The problem with Sigmar is everything is nebulous with little sense of relevance. Why conquer when there are infinite realms to settle? How does trade work? Why are there "portals" that only teleport you a mile or two away?
What for you are the main strengths of WFB that have been lost on the GW team?
We know of the weaknesses of course. Magic has always been an extreme crapshoot one way or another. Whether it was the "Quadratic gain for linear investment" of 6th ed/7th ed Power Dice generation (as well as hordes of zombies), or the "throw as many power dice on that Purple Sun" of 8th, the game has had its share of oddness. Morale has been "all or nothing" (the addition of a third result "shaken" between "pass/routed" was one of the things I like about Kings of War), either being "relatively irrelevant," or exploitable: Remember Terrorbombing? And of course, 8e Cannons led to monsters being marginalized even as GW continued to release many extremely kitbashable monsters!
But rather than discuss those flaws ("How could WFB have been saved" can easily be its own topic), I think this thread is a good one to discuss the strengths it did have:
-You got to do something in your opponent's turn: For me, this is the big one. One thing I hate about IGOUGO is the large downtime where only one player is actually making player choices. Compared to 8th 40k where Overwatch is just a "free action," in WFB, you had the choice between Overwatch or Fleeing. While 40k has struggled with its own Denial system, Fantasy let you choose what to dispel, let through, burn scrolls on, etc. Some items or powers let you convert dispel dice into power dice, adding an extra layer of thought to the whole affair. While I would enjoy a more unified "action/reaction" system (or even some form of Alternating Activation), a game of WFB felt a lot faster than its space counterpart...though the movement trays admittedly helped with that.
-Flanking meant something: One thing I did like about 2nd and 7th 40k was that casualty allocation was "closest model first." Thus, if you managed to encircle your foe, you could have a better shot at eliminating sergeants, heavy weapons, etc, or to negate linear cover. In other editions of 40k, flanking does little by comparison, as your foe gets to allocate casualties, and cover tends to be independent of the angle of attack (whether it's overly generous ala 5th or stingy ala 8th). But beyond this and some Armor Facings, flanking meant very little in 40k. By contrast, flanking in Fantasy let you marchblock, deny CR, set up panic chains with Burning Head or Firethrowers, or just straight-up harass your foe in general ("Cowboy" Goblins are funny for this).
-Maneuver and sacrificing units was more proactive: If you look at a 40k or Sigmar game, you notice it tends to devolve into a midfield scrum/pile-in. Any unit can materialize anywhere on the table, as long as they're 9.1" away. Thus, the closest you got to a sacrificial game was taking a few large units of chaff, plopping them in front of your big guns, and calling it a day. By contrast, you could sacrifice units to set up flanks, or force charge redirects ("Nice Chariots of Khorne you have. Shame if they would need to Overrun into those trees...").
-Remembering the Little Guys: WFB 8th was mocked for the majority of their codexes being heavily copypasted, with the majority of new units being Monsters of some sort. Similarly, 40k 6th added the Riptide, Wraithknight, Centurions and Imperial Knights, while 7th 40k went "Yeah, you can field a Baneblade in a pickup game." However, in Fantasy there was a similar emphasis on "regiments", groups of mortal humans (or elves or dwarfs or whathaveyou) that were renowned for their skills or wargear rather than being in giant mecha. The 8th ed Ogre Kingdoms Rulebook has what may be my favorite rule ever published by GW: "Been There, Done That." A unit of Ogre Maneaters could choose 2 Special Rules from a pool of 8th, but no Special Rule could be chosen by more than one unit of Maneaters. This ability by itself, while infamous for introducing Poison Sniper Double Ogre Pistol Maneaters, was both thematically cool and just fun since you could also fill in the fluff for how your Ogres became such renowned shots!
Finally, from a fluff standpoint, Fantasy had a sense of scale and perspective. The problem with Sigmar is everything is nebulous with little sense of relevance. Why conquer when there are infinite realms to settle? How does trade work? Why are there "portals" that only teleport you a mile or two away?
What for you are the main strengths of WFB that have been lost on the GW team?
