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Post by wilsonthenarc on Mar 31, 2017 19:29:50 GMT
PretzelHammer was an album by Steely Dan featuring Peter Gabriel. FYI.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2017 19:41:43 GMT
Now I'm curious. I may have a listen.
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Post by gjnoronh on Mar 31, 2017 20:02:25 GMT
Rich - While I absolutely agree with the idea of a tabletop game as gaming contract for mutual enjoyment, I think the characterization of folks who take 'hard lists' as those not interested in the gamers contract is unfair. The key is shared expectations for that environment. Playing against my kids, or an intro game against a newbie, or a megabattle where appearance is valued a la EEFL at Da Boyz or a narrative driven scenario or a no composition restrictions tournament all come with different expectations on list 'hardness', rules as written adherence, army proxies and paint standards etc. As long as folks at the table share the expectations there isn't a 'right' way to play. Understanding the standards for the community/setting you are playing at is key to being part of that unique contract for that game.
On power levels I do not think that no comp tournament results match the voting here. Part of this is again the environment games are being played in. Better players with 'harder' lists find different armies to be a challenge then less experienced players with 'softer' lists.
Dark Elves, High Elves, and to a lesser extent Empire did well throughout 8th in terms of podium finishes. Largely because they have 'all the tools' range threats, close combat, magic phase pressure and relative psychology protection. But really because the cost point of certain combinations (points) was low enough to allow them to field it all.
Warriors for example with the multi chariot build, and daemons in general in 8th in my opinion (and to the best of my recall) didn't generally win events with any consistency. They frustrated less experienced gamers because they excelled at running across the table and smacking into people's faces. If they couldn't play that game (for example with opposing chaff in the way or double flees) they struggled.
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Post by Anaris on Mar 31, 2017 23:14:45 GMT
Warriors for example with the multi chariot build, and daemons in general in 8th in my opinion (and to the best of my recall) didn't generally win events with any consistency. They frustrated less experienced gamers because they excelled at running across the table and smacking into people's faces. If they couldn't play that game (for example with opposing chaff in the way or double flees) they struggled. This is what I have over all commonly heard and read. However I did hear demons do a little bit better then you stated.
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Post by roughtimes on Apr 1, 2017 16:09:16 GMT
I don't own every army but I feel confident saying beastmen are no where near the top and arguably one if the worst.
It's an extremely weak army if you're into winning and power gaming.
One example: chaos hounds don't count for core. Wtf...
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Post by wilsonthenarc on Apr 2, 2017 15:29:00 GMT
I don't own every army but I feel confident saying beastmen are no where near the top and arguably one if the worst. It's an extremely weak army if you're into winning and power gaming. One example: chaos hounds don't count for core. Wtf... To be clear: I was goofing off when I voted for Beastmen.
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Post by wilsonthenarc on Apr 2, 2017 15:31:54 GMT
I changed my vote to (1) all have the potential and (2) high elves.
WoC are (a) the easiest for almost any player to make really good; and (2) never a truly bad choice. They certainly deserve to be in the discussion, but... they are just a heavy club.
High Elves got my vote because they are a finesse army. Bolt throwers, redirect eagles, LoreMasters, scouts, sneakiness. A gamer's army. Style.
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Post by Anaris on Apr 2, 2017 15:38:45 GMT
I like the first choice, I thought that would be the highest or tied with highest. I'm very surprised WoC has the most though over any other army. I know you guys explained it. I'm just still surprised. Everyone I meet always says they have a problem with high elves.
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Post by wilsonthenarc on Apr 2, 2017 15:41:20 GMT
And DEMONS still with only 1 vote. Many have said to me over a post-game pint that DEMONS is one of the best armies. I don't personally think so, but anecdotal evidence is there.
Yet... just 1 vote. Sorry Tzeentch. Better luck in 2020.
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Post by dannytee on Apr 2, 2017 18:56:50 GMT
This is a bit off topic because I know we are talking about 8th edition. But the hardest army book in my 13 years of warhammer has hands down been 7th edition daemons. That book was so gross. But that is a thing of the past and I am glad.
So on topic now my vote was also for WoC. Reasons are similar to what has already been discussed. I also believe that any book has the potential to beat any other book on a given day. This is why I was not big into comp packs back in the tournament days.
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Post by mottdon on Apr 2, 2017 22:17:15 GMT
I think everyone would feel differently about HE (DE and WE for that matter) if they didn't have free rerolls. Sure, they're good at magic, but SOMEONE will always be the best at it. Lizardmen are really good at magic as well, but not many consider then top tier. What's the difference? Rerolls. Just imagine how ridiculous WoC would be with free rerolls!
I think Skaven can be a nightmare, but they simply aren't reliable enough.
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Post by Anaris on Apr 3, 2017 2:29:43 GMT
I think everyone would feel differently about HE (DE and WE for that matter) if they didn't have free rerolls. Sure, they're good at magic, but SOMEONE will always be the best at it. Lizardmen are really good at magic as well, but not many consider then top tier. What's the difference? Rerolls. Just imagine how ridiculous WoC would be with free rerolls! I think Skaven can be a nightmare, but they simply aren't reliable enough. I play high elves. Its my first, primary, and my most skilled army I play. I agree the re rolls is ridiculous. Only thing I like about 9th age is they took that away but they still get to re roll 1's
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2017 16:54:51 GMT
I think everyone would feel differently about HE (DE and WE for that matter) if they didn't have free rerolls. Sure, they're good at magic, but SOMEONE will always be the best at it. Lizardmen are really good at magic as well, but not many consider then top tier. What's the difference? Rerolls. Just imagine how ridiculous WoC would be with free rerolls! I think Skaven can be a nightmare, but they simply aren't reliable enough. I always joked with my buddy that his high elf rerolls were a crutch. It was crazy good. I love WoC but they are ONE set of bad rolls away (it does happen, at least once a game for me) from not being able to generate the combat resolution that they need in order to win combat. WoC high individual model cost (the 8th book even makes marauders too expensive) necessitates smaller units, and it's typical to go into a combat already down 1-2 points due to not having a complete set of ranks and/or not getting the charge (they are M4 after all). They HAVE to kill things in order to stand a chance at winning combat, and most of the time their opponent is going to be steadfast for a while (again, few ranks), increasing the amount of time in combat increases the chances of that one-round that will ruin you. This is one of the reasons I voted for high elves, their ability to reroll their hits practically negates the "one bad turn of rolls cost me the combat" and allows them to be very consistent. Combined with all the other tools they have access to (bolt throwers, eagles, reavers, frostheart, access to ALL lores of magic, book of hoeth, banner of world dragon) and their amazing elite troops (all of which are viable, there's no one-ring-to-rule-them-all kind of situation) they are a great book. EDIT: I'm an idiot I voted for skaven. But high elves would be a close second if not tie for best army.
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Post by gjnoronh on Apr 3, 2017 16:58:10 GMT
7th ed Daemons were very good. But in 8th they really didn't shine very much. I think some of the hate is carry over from the 7th ed experience Supporting attacks, and steadfast made those 5+ save high cost infantry less attractive. The 8th ed book is more luck dependent then 7th as it's Reign of Chaos (is that the right term?) table could be useless or game breaking (in either direction) on any given day. I'm speaking purely as a guy whose 8th experience was mostly about grand tournaments (so large scale 50+ attendees 2 day five round events.) What's good in a different format may indeed differ. I actually don't off the top of my head recall Daemons winning an 8th ed tournament in the Northeast US (or anywhere else but I really mostly closely follow the NE US.) Mind you I am the administrator of the Daemonic Legion forum so I do try and keep a close eye in general on good Daemon lists. By the way please come check out our forum - the painting section in particular is a lot of fun! z7.invisionfree.com/wyrmling_x/index.phpActually on the topic of Daemons but very much off topic for EEFL this upcoming AoS release has gotten me pretty excited - I think the rules snippets I've seen really suggest to me they've got the right mechanics for Khorne armies for the first time in ages. www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Battletome-Blades-of-Khorne-HB-ENGNice rules overview here: www.frontlinegaming.org/2017/04/01/battletome-overview-blades-of-khorne/I'm not much of an AoS player but I'm more willing to experiment with it then our hardliners here. This release has me thinking very hard about making the leap full force.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2017 19:04:29 GMT
7th ed Daemons were very good. But in 8th they really didn't shine very much. I think some of the hate is carry over from the 7th ed experience Supporting attacks, and steadfast made those 5+ save high cost infantry less attractive. The 8th ed book is more luck dependent then 7th as it's Reign of Chaos (is that the right term?) table could be useless or game breaking (in either direction) on any given day. I'm speaking purely as a guy whose 8th experience was mostly about grand tournaments (so large scale 50+ attendees 2 day five round events.) What's good in a different format may indeed differ. I actually don't off the top of my head recall Daemons winning an 8th ed tournament in the Northeast US (or anywhere else but I really mostly closely follow the NE US.) Mind you I am the administrator of the Daemonic Legion forum so I do try and keep a close eye in general on good Daemon lists. By the way please come check out our forum - the painting section in particular is a lot of fun! z7.invisionfree.com/wyrmling_x/index.phpActually on the topic of Daemons but very much off topic for EEFL this upcoming AoS release has gotten me pretty excited - I think the rules snippets I've seen really suggest to me they've got the right mechanics for Khorne armies for the first time in ages. www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Battletome-Blades-of-Khorne-HB-ENGNice rules overview here: www.frontlinegaming.org/2017/04/01/battletome-overview-blades-of-khorne/I'm not much of an AoS player but I'm more willing to experiment with it then our hardliners here. This release has me thinking very hard about making the leap full force. You and me both brother. I was considering Daemons of Tzeentch, but this Khorne release coming out has me seriously considering a bigger Khorne detachment for my Warriors. And I'm actually considering playing AoS...there's a pretty big/strong group of players here that play it. Time will tell.
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