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Post by wilsonthenarc on Apr 3, 2017 21:06:58 GMT
Tzeentch released this book.
He knew it would drive up demand for all things Khorne-like. This would in turn drive down demand and therefore prices on all things Tzeentchian. Exactly as he planned.
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Post by Anaris on Apr 4, 2017 20:20:55 GMT
What is your guys opinion on Ogre Kingdoms?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2017 21:17:33 GMT
They're a pretty good list but they suffer from:
low-avg weapon skill low initiative
high point cost/small unit size - this can be offset by including gnoblars (although min units with trappers as speedbumps are the best way to go, they force dangerous terrain tests on units that charge them)
Their monsters are pretty good
They have a chariot/cannon that is regarded as one of/the best cannon in the game
I like them I think they're decent, I actually have about 1000 points of these guys in a box waiting to see the light of day. I plan to get a bunch of ironguts (core troops armed with heavy armor/great weapons) as the core of the force.
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Post by mottdon on Apr 4, 2017 23:18:19 GMT
I think Ogres are better than average, but it depends on the match-up.
I RANDOMLY had a match with an Ogre player at a local one-day tournament. I had taken my Wood Elves with a list that contained the Acorn of Ages, Calaingor's Stave and a Moonstone of Hidden Ways. At the beginning of the game, I rolled up 3 additional forests. He, of course, had taken the typical Ogre Bus. So I simply plunked them down all around them. Took them about three rounds to get out and I think that two of the forests were Blood Forests. I'm pouring arrows into that unit the entire time, while my units of Wild Riders and Treeman mop up everything else. By the time they start to get close to me, I move to another forest on the board. I tabled him and didn't lose a single unit. I felt really bad and normally wouldn't have done something like that, but it was a tourny so...
All that to say, they have their weaknesses, but are still really strong.
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Post by Anaris on Apr 4, 2017 23:24:53 GMT
I think Ogres are better than average, but it depends on the match-up. I RANDOMLY had a match with an Ogre player at a local one-day tournament. I had taken my Wood Elves with a list that contained the Acorn of Ages, Calaingor's Stave and a Moonstone of Hidden Ways. At the beginning of the game, I rolled up 3 additional forests. He, of course, had taken the typical Ogre Bus. So I simply plunked them down all around them. Took them about three rounds to get out and I think that two of the forests were Blood Forests. I'm pouring arrows into that unit the entire time, while my units of Wild Riders and Treeman mop up everything else. By the time they start to get close to me, I move to another forest on the board. I tabled him and didn't lose a single unit. I felt really bad and normally wouldn't have done something like that, but it was a tourny so... All that to say, they have their weaknesses, but are still really strong.Can you say that last sentence one more time please?
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Post by mottdon on Apr 4, 2017 23:29:50 GMT
The point is that they can be taken apart pretty easily with the right combinations, but against most armies, they are more than a match. But definitely NOT the strongest army out there. IMHO.
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Post by Horace on Apr 5, 2017 0:32:34 GMT
Daemons in 8th using the 7th book were pretty dirty. They were drastically undercosted with access to some ridiculous combinations. The 8th book has aligned them quite nicely in my opinion. The luck element is overhyped and a lot of the internet hate is generated by daemon players who can't bear to let go of their overpowered combos. I am surprised that HE are getting so many shouts as the number 1 army. Sure ASF is powerful, but they are T3 with basically no armour! This may be a crutch but they are the glassiest of glass cannons. I have just never really struggled too badly against HE, maybe it is my playstyle. And if you know in advance you are playing HE it is even easier to mitigate the ASF with your army choices. I guess I am a hardliner because the army rules could be the most awesome thing ever, AoS does not interest me in the slightest because the basic game rules are retarded (imo)
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Post by Anaris on Apr 5, 2017 0:36:47 GMT
Daemons in 8th using the 7th book were pretty dirty. They were drastically undercosted with access to some ridiculous combinations. The 8th book has aligned them quite nicely in my opinion. The luck element is overhyped and a lot of the internet hate is generated by daemon players who can't bear to let go of their overpowered combos. I am surprised that HE are getting so many shouts as the number 1 army. Sure ASF is powerful, but they are T3 with basically no armour! This may be a crutch but they are the glassiest of glass cannons. I have just never really struggled too badly against HE, maybe it is my playstyle. And if you know in advance you are playing HE it is even easier to mitigate the ASF with your army choices. I guess I am a hardliner because the army rules could be the most awesome thing ever, AoS does not interest me in the slightest because the basic game rules are retarded (imo) +5 likes and 500 billion + and stars and 👌👌👌🖒🖒🖒🖒🖒
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Post by grandmasterwang on Apr 5, 2017 0:49:50 GMT
Ogre Kingdoms came out super powerful compared to the crowd and won a lot of tournaments as they had the very powerful Mournfang when monstrous cavalry was still new and access to the underpriced and first moving cannon since Bronzino! They also had the hellheart which TK/VC players hated and Waac could use the greedy fist cheat before GW faq'd it not to steal magic levels the way Waac players were playing it. Then other 8th edition books were released and Ogres were no longer top dog. They are still a very solid army though. The jump in power from their 6th book to 8th was noticeable.... and they got the awesome model wise Stonehorn
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Post by gjnoronh on Apr 5, 2017 13:46:10 GMT
Again folks look at GT wins - HE's, DE's over represented at the top. I don't believe the Daemon or OK books were over represented at the top. I don't think we saw a single Podium finish for Daemons in 8th in the NE US including Overall and best general. What's good in basements is different then what's good at the highest level of competition. If you've got data to provide support one way or another would love to see it.
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Post by grandmasterwang on Apr 5, 2017 16:21:41 GMT
Again folks look at GT wins - HE's, DE's over represented at the top. I don't believe the Daemon or OK books were over represented at the top. I don't think we saw a single Podium finish for Daemons in 8th in the NE US including Overall and best general. What's good in basements is different then what's good at the highest level of competition. If you've got data to provide support one way or another would love to see it. is cer OK had a period after their book release where they did really well in tournaments. Remember the OK book was released around 18 months before the High Ef one. Lord Inquisitor i remember from Warseer won several tournaments with them. He had initially started OK under their 6th book because his 7th Daemons were considered OP i recall. I believe in a Waac setting all the 8th Elf books are very powerful however WOC are are also for some of the reasons i mentioned earlier in the thread. Regarding them winning tournaments and your ask for data I decided to do a very quick dig as I remember reading about how they dominated at tournaments back in the day and complaints about them....the following post from Dakka popped up. "Aaron Chapman, ranked #3 on the site for fantasy players in the US, won the 40-player Shiloh Slaughter 2 weeks ago with WoC. There were 3 WoC players in the top 5. Link: www.rankingshq.com/public/tournamentprofile.aspx?TournamentId=2881 Michael Hengl, ranked #6 on the site, won the 64-player SAWS Challenge with WoC. There were 4 WoC players in the top 10. Link: www.rankingshq.com/public/tournamentprofile.aspx?TournamentId=2141 Those are two quick examples, but hopefully it shows you the facts that you've been requesting: WoC are extremely competitive, and regularly win and place very highly at top events. I would've loved to list out the results from the Adepticon tournaments, but the results aren't listed by armies for them (or for a number of events). But the examples shown above should illustrate the point... there are many more, as well." Now unfortunately Rankings HQ no longer has WFB data back that far so the links in the Dakka post don't work but that post mentions 2 tournament wins by WOC. Dakka also had this from a WOC tournament player. He didn't win but came second to an OK player in his last tournament. "I must admit i was shocked at the opening of your post. I have never had trouble being competitive with WoC, except maybe when they trashed our book and we had to play our army out of white dwarf for a while while they were working on the previous editions book. The last tourney i played in i went 5-1, the only game i lost was to the guy who ended up winning the tourney and he brought the typical Gutstar, but my dice also died on me and he could do no wrong as far as his were concerned. Good guy, we had some laughs at the end. I'm still pretty surprised that you seemingly found nothing but dismal battle reports about WoC. I typically see at least one WoC placing in the top 10 of every major tourney report i see. I think this book added alot of mobility to WoC that we were lacking in previous books, as well as modifying how are army works, but not breaking it in either direction at the same time. I hope you enjoy trying new builds and learning the ropes on this fun and very competative army." Given how many 8th edition tournaments were held worldwide I'd be surprised if there was any single army that hasn't won a couple. My local experience was that WOC were consistent top 5 placers in tournaments and my quick look for data online seems to support that.
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Post by mahbruck on Apr 5, 2017 17:20:11 GMT
...access to the underpriced and first moving cannon since Bronzino! Bronzino's Gun could only 'move and shoot' in the 5th edition, but the rule was scrapped since the 6th as 'it was too over-powered'. The Ironblaster cost merely 130 pts for all godly goodness while the whole Bronzino team with a puny gun cost a whooping 165 pts. Easily the best (i.e. borderline broken) gun in the entire game!
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Post by wilsonthenarc on Apr 5, 2017 17:28:49 GMT
Bronzino's Gun could only 'move and shoot' in the 5th edition, but the rule was scrapped since the 6th as 'it was too over-powered'. The Ironblaster cost merely 130 pts for all godly goodness while the whole Bronzino team with a puny gun cost a whooping 165 pts. Easily the best (i.e. borderline broken) gun in the entire game! I personally played a very nice gent at a Tourney. This Tourney was quite close to the advent of AoS. Well, he was nice enough but he played some seriously WAAC games with his Ironblaster that I did not like. >> He had a pocket laser pointer and the "Lines of Sight" he drew with it would originate in a very obscure corner of the base of his Ironblaster for some very, IMHO, unfair shots. He would use the head of the actual model to determine true line of sight and then draw whatever geometric theoretical line he wanted. Typically, this meant he was able to draw a line through 4 of my Demigryphs at any given time. This was (1) a gaming advantage for him and (2) took a lot of time and (3) felt very NOT in the spirit of the game. I am never one to call a TO so I just played on (and won). That one game soured me on the Ironblaster forever. A cannon that can move, and move SEVEN to boot, and still shoot a S10 cannonball? Whatever.
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Post by gjnoronh on Apr 5, 2017 19:36:41 GMT
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Post by mottdon on Apr 6, 2017 2:39:54 GMT
Honestly, I could care less about who came in what place how many times. I go off personal experience. 9 times out of 10, the WoC players I have played, have all been WAAC players. Nice guys that I've gotten along with, but total WAAC jobs.
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