Rules Query - Banner of the Lost Holds (Dwarf Heirloom)

As rules stand, it is even worse: the BoLH cannot be taken at all!  The Dwarf BSB rules on p. 85 specify: "The Battle Standard Bearer can have a runic standard (no points limit). A model that carries a runic standard can have no other runic items or Ancestral Heirlooms."

Now, obviously, as I have already maintained in a recent thread, a rule must be playable. We do not know what the intent of the writer was, but at the very least, the BSB must be able to take it. So we have to read in the BSB rule  "Magic/runic standard."

We can exclude other characters, because the BRB p. 503 specifies: "The only character permitted to carry a Magic Standard is the army's battle Standard Bearer."

Whether or not the Slayers would get it is unclear. You can point to the example of the BSB as precedent, but on the other hand, it is not exactly unheard of that units simply have no Magic Standard to take with the maximum allowed points.  Since that always annoyed me myself in the case of the Empire, I personally would have no objections for my Dwarf opponents. [Or can they take runic standards worth 100 points?]

To add (challenging my own position once again): For the BSB, there may perhaps be a way out, in the sense that AH "may be taken in addition to runic items as a character's points allow." But if you follow that road, then the Slayers cannot take the BoLH.

Hah, I have only just noticed that now. It literally is unpickable by the rules, by either the BSB OR the Slayers. I don't see how the BSB would be able to pick it even with the "may be taken in addition to runic items as a character's points allow", because his magic item allowance is only 75 points.

I think I would allow it to be taken by both

I think the best approach now that GW has abandoned 8th edition, is to talk about it with your opponent and agree how to use it. No more FAQs so it's literally up to us. The bad part is if you have closed lists. Then you just have to make a judgement call as to how you're going to use it.

As for me personally, I'd agree to let the Slayers take it because I hate having items that can only be used one way. That is ridiculous to me.

If the BSB is carrying the Banner, then yes, provided there is no place for him in the front rank or he is removed to the rear for refusing a challenge and that rear happens to be the second rank. If we allow the Slayers to have the Banner, then no, because a unit standard bearer must always be in the front rank.

I'd also say the Slayer unit could take the Banner of Lost Holds.


In addition to the points made, page 59 under Runic Magic states: "It is important to remember that an Ancestral Heirloom or runic item is no different from a magic item, and all the usual rules for magic items still apply...All the rules that apply to the possession and use of magic items also apply to runic items."

Given this wording and description, in conjunction with the fact that no model would be able to carry the Banner of Lost Holds if you went by RAW, it seems that magic items, Ancestral Heirlooms (the Dwarf only magic items) and runic items are all one and interchangeable language.

I would certainly allow a Slayer unit carry the banner.

This is, by far and away, the best advice you can get for handling rule conflicts in 8E anymore.

You are missing the point. As I said in my very first post: a rule must be playable, and, quite obviously, the AB writer made a mistake. I should think that everyone is agreed on this, and on the fact that at least the BSB should be able to carry the banner, because a BSB is always able to carry any AB banner that is not tied to a Special Character. So, as I suggested before, the BSB entry should read "Magic Standard,"  not runic standard. The only point in question is whether a Slayer unit should also have that option. We cannot really know. However, that is not a reason to fall victim to logical fallacies in arguing the case.