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Post by knoffles on Jun 22, 2018 7:22:27 GMT
Gents,
Can this banner be taken as a unit standard?
In the main section on Ancestral heirlooms it stats:
The following are magic items available to Dwarf armies. These items may be taken in addition to runic items as a characters points allowed.
Under the Banner's section it states: All models in the unit that carries the banner get.....
Due to the cost of the banner (100pts) normally only the BSB could take the standard. However, if you take Ungrim as your general, one unit of slayers can take a banner up to 100pts in value, so potentially you could give this banner to a unit of slayers...
I think convention is that only the bsb can take this banner as it talks about the characters points and the writer probably didn't even consider that slayers could get a 100pt banner.
I am more than likely biased though, hence I thought i'd throw it out to the crowd to see if i'm just wishful thinking with this one.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jun 22, 2018 8:21:07 GMT
As rules stand, it is even worse: the BoLH cannot be taken at all! The Dwarf BSB rules on p. 85 specify: "The Battle Standard Bearer can have a runic standard (no points limit). A model that carries a runic standard can have no other runic items or Ancestral Heirlooms."
Now, obviously, as I have already maintained in a recent thread, a rule must be playable. We do not know what the intent of the writer was, but at the very least, the BSB must be able to take it. So we have to read in the BSB rule "Magic/runic standard."
We can exclude other characters, because the BRB p. 503 specifies: "The only character permitted to carry a Magic Standard is the army's battle Standard Bearer."
Whether or not the Slayers would get it is unclear. You can point to the example of the BSB as precedent, but on the other hand, it is not exactly unheard of that units simply have no Magic Standard to take with the maximum allowed points. Since that always annoyed me myself in the case of the Empire, I personally would have no objections for my Dwarf opponents. [Or can they take runic standards worth 100 points?]
To add (challenging my own position once again): For the BSB, there may perhaps be a way out, in the sense that AH "may be taken in addition to runic items as a character's points allow." But if you follow that road, then the Slayers cannot take the BoLH.
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Post by vintageof79 on Jun 22, 2018 12:31:09 GMT
As FvonSigmaren states, in theory Slayers cannot take it. Not sure that this is the intent and certainly I play it to include magic and runic banners, but Ungrim's entry reads (under the Slayer King, p53):
"if Ungrim's is chosen as general, a single slayer unit may take a runic standard worth up to 100 points".
The BoLH's is classified as a magic banner, not runic, hence Slayers should not be able to take it if you go by RAW.
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Post by Horace on Jun 22, 2018 12:59:15 GMT
Hah, I have only just noticed that now. It literally is unpickable by the rules, by either the BSB OR the Slayers. I don't see how the BSB would be able to pick it even with the "may be taken in addition to runic items as a character's points allow", because his magic item allowance is only 75 points.
I think I would allow it to be taken by both
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jun 22, 2018 13:56:43 GMT
@ Horace: Good point. And it would have sufficed to say Magic Standard, because all runic standards are in fact Magic Standards (but not vice versa).
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Post by mottdon on Jun 22, 2018 14:02:46 GMT
I think the best approach now that GW has abandoned 8th edition, is to talk about it with your opponent and agree how to use it. No more FAQs so it's literally up to us. The bad part is if you have closed lists. Then you just have to make a judgement call as to how you're going to use it.
As for me personally, I'd agree to let the Slayers take it because I hate having items that can only be used one way. That is ridiculous to me.
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Post by grandmasterwang on Jun 22, 2018 15:29:07 GMT
...but can it be used in the second rank?
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jun 22, 2018 15:34:14 GMT
If the BSB is carrying the Banner, then yes, provided there is no place for him in the front rank or he is removed to the rear for refusing a challenge and that rear happens to be the second rank. If we allow the Slayers to have the Banner, then no, because a unit standard bearer must always be in the front rank.
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Post by knoffles on Jun 22, 2018 19:30:19 GMT
As FvonSigmaren states, in theory Slayers cannot take it. Not sure that this is the intent and certainly I play it to include magic and runic banners, but Ungrim's entry reads (under the Slayer King, p53): "if Ungrim's is chosen as general, a single slayer unit may take a runic standard worth up to 100 points". The BoLH's is classified as a magic banner, not runic, hence Slayers should not be able to take it if you go by RAW. That is a good point. And so is the one where the wording also prevents the bsb from taking it as he is also only allowed to take a ‘runic standard’ of any points value. Now it could be argued that all dwarf magic items are runic as they were crafted by dwarves (and they’d never use something from a lesser race), it which case the bsb could take it (and therefore the slayers to). But then I’d probably go with the section at the top of the ancestral runes next which states about them coming out of a characters points and so they couldn’t take it. I think we can definitely agree it’s another case of bad writing. Cheers for the comments guys, it only came to mind when I was writing the section on ancestral runes in the dwarf book
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Post by KevinC on Jun 22, 2018 19:56:45 GMT
I'd also say the Slayer unit could take the Banner of Lost Holds.
In addition to the points made, page 59 under Runic Magic states: "It is important to remember that an Ancestral Heirloom or runic item is no different from a magic item, and all the usual rules for magic items still apply...All the rules that apply to the possession and use of magic items also apply to runic items."
Given this wording and description, in conjunction with the fact that no model would be able to carry the Banner of Lost Holds if you went by RAW, it seems that magic items, Ancestral Heirlooms (the Dwarf only magic items) and runic items are all one and interchangeable language.
I would certainly allow a Slayer unit carry the banner.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jun 22, 2018 20:31:20 GMT
I am afraid not. That is a false equivalence. As I pointed out before: all runic standards are Magic Standards - but not vice versa. The same applies to runic items and Ancestral Heirlooms. All runic items and Ancestral Heirlooms are Magic Items, but not vice versa; and runic items are not Ancestral Heirlooms and vice versa. There are definitely not interchangeable.
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Post by vulcan on Jun 22, 2018 21:39:07 GMT
I think the best approach now that GW has abandoned 8th edition, is to talk about it with your opponent and agree how to use it. No more FAQs so it's literally up to us. The bad part is if you have closed lists. Then you just have to make a judgement call as to how you're going to use it. As for me personally, I'd agree to let the Slayers take it because I hate having items that can only be used one way. That is ridiculous to me. This is, by far and away, the best advice you can get for handling rule conflicts in 8E anymore.
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Post by vulcan on Jun 22, 2018 21:44:25 GMT
I am afraid not. That is a false equivalence. As I pointed out before: all runic standards are Magic Standards - but not vice versa. The same applies to runic items and Ancestral Heirlooms. All runic items and Ancestral Heirlooms are Magic Items, but not vice versa; and runic items are not Ancestral Heirlooms and vice versa. There are definitely not interchangeable. At which point we go back to where it can't be used at all... in which case why is it even in the book?
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jun 22, 2018 22:38:25 GMT
You are missing the point. As I said in my very first post: a rule must be playable, and, quite obviously, the AB writer made a mistake. I should think that everyone is agreed on this, and on the fact that at least the BSB should be able to carry the banner, because a BSB is always able to carry any AB banner that is not tied to a Special Character. So, as I suggested before, the BSB entry should read "Magic Standard," not runic standard. The only point in question is whether a Slayer unit should also have that option. We cannot really know. However, that is not a reason to fall victim to logical fallacies in arguing the case.
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on Jun 22, 2018 23:07:04 GMT
BSB taking the standard: Slayer unit (with Ungrim as general) taking the standard:
- RAW = NO
- RAI = UNCLEAR (best to discuss with your opponent, personally I'd have no problem with my opponent fielding it but I can acknowledge counter-arguments against it)
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