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Post by thegoat on Oct 12, 2021 18:33:50 GMT
I just watched a Skaven vs. Orcs battle report where the Orc player repeatedly used a goblin hero to prevent the Skaven player from changing the facing of his Hell Pit Abomination before rolling the move distance. The Skaven player seemed totally fine with this tactic. "Rules as written" I guess that tactic is legal. The Abomination rules say he must pivot on the spot, then move straight forward. But he can't pivot because any pivot would violate the 1" Apart rule. I would never use such a tactic. It makes zero sense for the Abomination to maintain a polite 1" distance from the goblin hero on wolf. The 1" Apart rule even states "This rule is purely for clarity. It is important to be able to tell at a glance where one unit stops and another begins..." To me the 1" Apart rule is not intended to be used as it was in this battle report. To me the tactic was 100% unsportsmanlike and goes against the spirit of the game. Bordering on cheating even. But given that both players in the battle report had no issue with the tactic, maybe I'm in the minority. What do you guys think? Am I just too soft? |
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Post by Naitsabes on Oct 12, 2021 18:57:00 GMT
It's endearingly called 'railroading'. And in our group it's pretty standard fare. Doesn't mean your opinion is wrong.
Good to bring up in your group BEFORE the heat of the game and come to an agreement. It only matters how you guys get the most out of the game. Rules are just guidelines and 'official-ness' completely overrated.
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Post by padre on Oct 12, 2021 19:03:04 GMT
As a campaign GM I would not encourage such shenanigans, even if RAW, as we try to make the game world seem more 'real'. So I agree with the Goat, for the reason of 'Zero sense'. It would be odd to write a story-style battle report which contained such a events - I would have to make up some story reason for the HPA's 'confusion' and 'lack of action'.
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Post by thegoat on Oct 12, 2021 19:11:08 GMT
It's endearingly called 'railroading'. And in our group it's pretty standard fare. Doesn't mean your opinion is wrong. Good to bring up in your group BEFORE the heat of the game and come to an agreement. It only matters how you guys get the most out of the game. Rules are just guidelines and 'official-ness' completely overrated. I agree 100%. It is always more important for you and your opponent to have a common understanding about stuff like this, instead of trying to do it rules as written "correct". I will say, I do play to win. But I'm not a tournament style win at all costs player. Mostly because I have no interest in going up against a player who used tactics like the railroading shown in the battle report. |
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Post by gorfung on Oct 12, 2021 20:00:21 GMT
you also have to remember that if your going to although this then you cant allow any other movement to come within 1" of anything else either, including skirmishers from coming within 1" of terrain or their own units at anytime during reform snaking or table edges etc
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beastyboy
Full Member
5th eddition lizardmen !
Posts: 205
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Post by beastyboy on Oct 12, 2021 21:26:24 GMT
I thought the 1 " rule was only ending your turn within 1 inch.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Oct 12, 2021 22:01:31 GMT
If I am allowed to quote myself, being an Attorney-at-RAW: On a side note: I have met many a player who argued RAI>RAW, where the alleged intent ran clearly counter to the wording of the rules, but who were quite anal about the 1" rule. The funny thing is that the 1" rule is one of the few rules where the intent is explicitly stated. - BRB p. 13: This rule is purely for clarity. It's important to be able to tell at a glance where one unit stops and another begins. [Italics mine]
So, it is not intended to block movement which would bring the unit within less than 1" of a different unit, but without touching it. Provided, of course, the unit at the end of its movement would remain up 1" apart of all other units.
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Post by vulcan on Oct 13, 2021 1:58:18 GMT
Railroading is a valid tactic in the RAW. It's just not quite as crippling as some make it out to be. You can still pivot the random mover, just not so far that they make contact with the railroading unit. You can limit the random mover's ability to pivot, but not eliminate it entirely.
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Post by knoffles on Oct 14, 2021 6:18:25 GMT
I’ve had it used against me and used once in a club comp (vs a hellpit). I felt unclean doing so and so personally don’t do it (in the same way I refuse to use slayer darts etc). That said I’m alway prepared for the tactic to be used against me and if I were to ever return to tournament play, I’d definitely consider it (unless the comp pack stated railroading wasn’t allowed - something I have seen).
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Post by thegoat on Oct 14, 2021 12:12:39 GMT
I refuse to use slayer darts Can you explain, what is the slayer dart tactic you mentioned? Based on the fact it has a clever name, I already know I'm not going to like it. |
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Post by thegoat on Oct 14, 2021 12:19:36 GMT
I thought the 1 " rule was only ending your turn within 1 inch. It depends on how strictly you read the rule. I always interpreted similar to you. You can violate the 1" as long as you nudge units not in combat 1" apart at the end of the turn. But RaW you are not allowed to violate the 1" rule at any point. |
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Post by KevinC on Oct 14, 2021 12:40:34 GMT
I just watched a Skaven vs. Orcs battle report where the Orc player repeatedly used a goblin hero to prevent the Skaven player from changing the facing of his Hell Pit Abomination before rolling the move distance. The Skaven player seemed totally fine with this tactic. "Rules as written" I guess that tactic is legal. The Abomination rules say he must pivot on the spot, then move straight forward. But he can't pivot because any pivot would violate the 1" Apart rule. I would never use such a tactic. It makes zero sense for the Abomination to maintain a polite 1" distance from the goblin hero on wolf. The 1" Apart rule even states "This rule is purely for clarity. It is important to be able to tell at a glance where one unit stops and another begins..." To me the 1" Apart rule is not intended to be used as it was in this battle report. To me the tactic was 100% unsportsmanlike and goes against the spirit of the game. Bordering on cheating even. But given that both players in the battle report had no issue with the tactic, maybe I'm in the minority. What do you guys think? Am I just too soft? --------I'm ok with this if, at the start of the game, I understand that we are going to be extremely technical about the 1" rule. When I play WFB, I loosely observe the 1" rule...meaning I think it's an important rule but I don't find it necessary to play it strict unless someone is doing something extremely gamey to begin with. But if I know my opponent is going to be super strict with the 1" rule, fine, than I have a heads up and know to play super careful in regards. |
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Oct 14, 2021 12:45:20 GMT
thegoat: Yes and no, because, as you yourself pointed out, BRB p. 13 also specifies: "This rule is purely for clarity." This is part and parcel of the RAW too. Note also that the Random Movement has its own version of the 1" rule, which does not include enemy units. So, the Random Mover can try to charge the blocking unit, which, however, will normally result in a failed charge. As a result, the Random Mover will stay put, rather than being railroaded off the board.
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Post by KevinC on Oct 14, 2021 12:49:47 GMT
Back in the WFB 8th edition tournament days, some players would do this 1" stuff. I shrugged and went along with it. Than the one time I adopted the tactic in a tournament game, my opponent got pissed off and couldn't believe what I was trying to do - and I just didn't do it because he was so upset. Either way, it's a no win scenario.
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Post by knoffles on Oct 15, 2021 8:22:27 GMT
I refuse to use slayer darts Can you explain, what is the slayer dart tactic you mentioned? Based on the fact it has a clever name, I already know I'm not going to like it. it’s an awful thing that only the most beardless manling would choose to do. You basically take a unit of 5 slayers, fielded 1 wide and 5 deep. Upgrade them all to giant slayers and because they are then all champions, if you charge them into an enemy unit, effectively only one can be targeted each round of combat. Combined with their unbreakable rule you have a super cheap, more effective, Skaven slave unit equivalent. Like I said no true Dwarven general would use it but forewarned is forearmed and if you see a unit of 5 slayers, just turn them into a pin cushion at the earliest opportunity. |
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