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Post by KevinC on Jul 18, 2015 14:27:31 GMT
Bugman,
Thanks for sharing the game, but your opponent did not properly deploy his knight. The way I wrote Lance Formation is that on the charge stead fast is negated and horde formation with 6 wide. knowing these rules, what is best best way to break something?
It should encourage large squadrons of Knights, say 18 or even 24, six wide. 18 Knights with champion for example would dish out 19 S6 attacks , plus six S3 horses. This can do serious damage, on top of possible adding impact hits or dev charge. Also Imagine a hitty character to two joining the unit! It would be insane!
Not to mention, one reason I wrote the rule like this is for esthetics. The 3-wide buses always looked stupid to me (though proper wedge formation back in 5th was awesome looking). With the new Lance Formation, I wanted to encourage large and wide knight formations that look cool, scary and cinematic!
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Post by TheREALricksalamone on Jul 18, 2015 15:01:28 GMT
It's a bit of a stretch to say that bretonnians and chaos warriors are both "humans".  |
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Post by avatarofbugman on Jul 18, 2015 15:51:00 GMT
We did steadfast the way you proposed, the issue is damage out put. Your horde formation idea only increases the number of attacks by 5 over the existing lance formation. That means maybe 3 more wounds. Killy characters come into play, certainly, but don't forget that both sides can have them.
Your rules as written did not get rid of the 3 wide formation. If that was your intent it should be stated more directly. He may not have deployed his army the way you would have, but my dwarves would have chewed am 18 man horde pretty badly. With 30 hammerers I can easily take out the whole back rank and a good chunk of the second, leaving no rank bonus. With 19 attacks the Brettonians are looking at an average of 10 hits and 8 wounds. My hammerers can easily get 8 wounds to stick on average rolls, and if I'm only 6 wide I will have 2 ranks over the Brettonian horde and win combat.
We actually ran through this exact situation last night after the game.
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Post by avatarofbugman on Jul 18, 2015 15:53:30 GMT
The issue may be different against other armies, but against T4 armies that can bring gw attacks back at the Brettonians they will forever be at a disadvantage. We will do another game soon to look at it more, but there isn't enough of a balance between damage outlay vs. Survivability at the moment.
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Post by avatarofbugman on Jul 18, 2015 15:55:17 GMT
With your rules, even with the horde formation and steadfast, the only way to break something is to successfully get off a multiple charge. If only one unit makes it, you are looking at a doomed unit.
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Post by avatarofbugman on Jul 18, 2015 15:57:41 GMT
I'm not trying to say poo-poo on everything. The battle pilgrims worked well for Danny, and we had fun. Just with the point cost and the lack of survivability it seemed very much to be the same Brettonian Army I've always faced.
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Post by avatarofbugman on Jul 18, 2015 16:00:15 GMT
It's a bit of a stretch to day that bretonnians and chaos warriors are both "humans". True, but my examples were purpose from outside the Warhammer World to show that it is not unreasonable. Brettonian fluff goes a long way stating how exemplary these knights are, and they really can't go toe to toe with the Empire knights. Their horses are the only thing that is really better. |
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Post by TheREALricksalamone on Jul 18, 2015 18:00:29 GMT
I would like to add that NOTHING does well against 30 hammerers. T4 wouldn't matter. This unit is to be avoided. Lol.
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Post by avatarofbugman on Jul 18, 2015 18:08:51 GMT
I did it with 30 warriors, though.
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Post by avatarofbugman on Jul 18, 2015 18:09:06 GMT
He also bounced off my longbeards w shields unit
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Post by KevinC on Jul 18, 2015 21:27:12 GMT
Bugman,
No worries, I appreciate all your comments.
Regarding the 3-wide buses, players can deploy like that and that's all fine. My surprise was regarding the benefit in the game you guys played. Assuming their was a unit champion, there would be only 7 attacks from the knights (and 3 from horses). If he had them wider, whether 4, 5 or 6, he would have more attacks. What was the advantage of 3-wide?
I'm considering all things and feedback, including T4. But I do agree with Jerkface that Hammerers are tough for anything to crack. Dwarfs are tough in general.
I'd really love to hear about some games with the Lance Formation versus Skaven, Orcs & Goblins, Empire, Chaos, etc. Jerkface and you try some play testing (use you knight models as bretts).
Lastly, anyone play testing please use the Lance Formation as I wrote, but add Impact Hits (1), to a charging Bretonnian Knght, which may may be resolved at the Strength of the lance (S6). Knights of the Realm armed with Great Weapons will not benefit from Impact Hits (1).
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Post by KevinC on Jul 18, 2015 21:32:57 GMT
Folks,
I amended the Lance Formation special rule. When play testing Lance Formation described in the PDF, please add: any charging Knight armed with a lance gains the Impact Hits (1) special rule, which is resolved with a Strength of 6.
Please play test when you can, I'd really like to hear more about the use of this list in your games. I don't want to post draft 2 until we get a decent amount of feedback and testing, especially regarding the Lance Formation.
Thanks!
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Post by avatarofbugman on Jul 18, 2015 21:57:15 GMT
I'll admit we may not have played it perfectly, but he definitely did 14 attacks on me. Also, again, it wasn't hammerers, just warriors.
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Post by avatarofbugman on Jul 18, 2015 21:59:41 GMT
I only mentioned hammerers as an example, but the warriors are near as bad. I think impact hits may be the key, as it doesn't require the to hit roll. Also, the points do seem high. Is there a reason beyond the ward save for this?
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Post by KevinC on Jul 18, 2015 23:26:35 GMT
They are priced a bit high, maybe 25 points a piece would be more accurate. Note though, Grail Knights have two wounds each.
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