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Post by strutsagget on Jun 27, 2017 13:09:37 GMT
So my second race is going to be WoC. I want a list that is as compedetive as possible and unfair in every way. I will use this list when i loose to many games in a row with wood elves my friends will mostley bring skaven and orcs. Please help med build this 1500 list UPDATE: we run 2000p now started a new post for that list. A start: [1295pts] +++ Lords +Chaos Sorcerer Lord [235pts]: Lore of Tzeentch, Wizard Level 3 + Heroes +Exalted Hero [110pts]+ Core +Chaos Chariot [110pts]Chaos Warhounds [30pts]: 5x Chaos Warhound Chaos Warhounds [30pts]: 5x Chaos Warhound Chaos Warriors [380pts]: Champion, 25x Chaos Warrior, Musician, Standard Bearer + Special +Chaos Knights [200pts]: 5x Chaos Knight + Rare +Chaos Giant [200pts]++ Total: [1295pts] ++Created with BattleScribe
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Post by knoffles on Jun 27, 2017 17:33:21 GMT
A standard loadout for a tzeentch bsb is to add a disc of tzeentch, 4++ ward item, 3rd eye/helm of tzeentch gift (not near a book to check the name). Then perhaps the enchanted shield. This gives a 1+ save and 3++ ward (rerolling 1's). Note this unkillable bsb is still surprisingly killable as he only has 2 wounds. For the sorcerer lord you could do a similar loadout but perhaps add the fencer blades (if points allow, not sure how much the gift is). Or make him nurgle with the fencer blades as he'd be a nightmare to hit in combat and Lore of nurgle would help with the Orc toughness (Lore of death is pretty good too). With regards to competitive/unfair lists, we can advise what works well for us but much of what makes it work is down to practice and familiarity (and how well your opponents know their list too!). Are there units that your friends normally bring to every game? If we know that, we could probably tailor your list to counter them.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2017 18:28:22 GMT
You need to make that exalted hero a bsb. You're a LD8 army; you'll be surprised how many of those test you'll fail. Often at the most inopportune times too. You can leave him on foot and put him in with the warriors, but I'd recommend a mount, daemonic mounts are awesome as it will make the hero T5 and give him a 3rd wound. But it also means that you won't have decent protection against things like cannons unless you have skullcrushers in the list. I'd consider a charmed shield to try and discount the first hit against him (hopefully the first hit is a cannon).
I'd ditch the giant; they're for fun, they're not competitive. Not knowing how they're even going to attack is a liability. What are your Chaos Warriors armed with? They have to take something, either a shield, ahw, halberd, or great weapon. If you're going for super competitive then give them halberds, the MoN, and give them the +1M banner to get them across the table quickly.
What units do you have access to? I'd also make that unit of knights larger. They may have a 1+ armor save but you will fail some and the unit will quickly lose any punch in combat after a couple rounds. I never leave home with less than 7.
That's all I've got for now.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2017 19:11:17 GMT
Actually another thing: While a sorc on disc is awesome and fun, the Lore of Tzeentch is...just OK. It would be AWESOME if it didn't give your opponent regeneration saves. I don't know WTF Games Workshop was thinking with that one it should have been roll a die, on a 6 they get regen, any other result they take additional wounds; not a T test as it is now. Take the lore of metal, it's actually pretty good for us. There's only one or two spells in the list that are situational. While it sucks that skaven and O&G don't have a lot of high armor the threat you can pose to his boar boyz and chariots and solo characters with the sig spell is often enough to keep him holding on to those dispel dice. Plus its an easy and effective way of putting wounds through onto a doomwheel. The number 6 spell is amazing against both armies. 5+ scaly skin on your warriors is great (1+/2+ save infantry anyone?). +1 to hit is always nice to make sure those hits connect. a permanent -1 to armor saves is always nice; even if it means they go from a 5+ to a 6+ they're now only saving half as many as they were before, and now your S4 troops are wounding them with no save allowed.
Take the chaos familiar for another spell and +1 to channel. Take either an enchanted shield or the scaly skin gift to get yourself a 1+ armor save. get a 4+ ward with the talisman of preservation for a 3+ ward save (MoT). Then take the third eye of tzeentch so you can reroll ward saves of 1. You won't go wrong either with a breath weapon on him either.
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Post by strutsagget on Jun 27, 2017 20:36:30 GMT
Update: This is a long term plan and I'm collecting units to get it and also so my friends dont know exact what they will meet every time ++ Standard (Warriors of Chaos - Army Book (2013-4) -V8.8.0.) [1500pts] +++ Lords +Chaos Sorcerer Lord [345pts]: Lore of Metal, Mark of Nurgle, Wizard Level 3 . Chaos Mutations & Powers: Chaos Familiar, Scaled Skin, Third Eye of Tzeentch . Magic Items: BRB - Talisman of Preservation + Heroes +Exalted Hero [175pts]: Battle Standard Bearer, Daemonic Mount . Magic Items: BRB - Charmed Shield + Core +Chaos Chariot [110pts]Chaos Warhounds [30pts]: 5x Chaos Warhound Chaos Warhounds [30pts]: 5x Chaos Warhound Chaos Warriors [520pts]. Champion . 25x Chaos Warrior: 25x Halberds, 25x Mark of Nurgle . Musician . Standard Bearer: BRB - Banner of Swiftness + Special +Chaos Knights [290pts]: 7x Chaos Knight, Musician ++ Total: [1500pts] ++
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2017 21:04:48 GMT
FYI if a sorc chooses MoN then he get lore of Nurgle or Lore of death. If you want the third eye and the Lore of metal then he must have MoT as the two lores you can choose from with the MoT are Tzeentch and Metal.
That means that if you want to run him on foot the warriors will need the MoT. That's not a bad thing as a 6+ ward has saved quite a few warriors for me over my many games with them.
But I'm also a Tzeentch guy through and through.
That's a better list though. Nasty at 1500 points that's for sure. If you can find points I'd try and squeeze a standard into the knights. Also if given a choice between a disc and the familiar I'd take the disc. That mobility will help you a lot. Not to mention you can warmachine hunt with your general. I'd consider dropping some warriors, I'd run them 7x3 (take 21) for max attacks against a 5-wide infantry block on similar sized bases (25mm).
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Post by Naitsabes on Jun 28, 2017 2:25:06 GMT
the goal here is to create a vicious list, right?
I would suggest: Daemon Prince of Nurgle, using death snipe magic, make him 6+ to-hit in combat with fly and armor. should clock in close to 500pts unkillable BSB (items as above to get the uber ward save but, put him on a Daemonic Mount so he gets three wounds) hounds and chariots in core to the required minimum as many skullcrusher as points allow
You will lose friends but, that is the price to pay on your Path to Damnation.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2017 16:23:43 GMT
At 1500 points though you can't fit everything on a DP that makes them such a terror to face. A properly tooled DP costs around 450 points...before magic levels. Fully tooled he's over 600 points.
At these points he's fine with a sorc.
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Post by Naitsabes on Jun 28, 2017 17:48:09 GMT
he's got 750pts for lords. enough for the meanest DP. If you were to ignore the last FAQ and play with 25% lord (which I like a lot), I would still propose that 375pts of daemon prince is better for losing friends by playing a list that kills the fun. I guess you'd need to think a bit about the loadout then (but, it'll be the only thinking you'd have to do, the games themselves won't require that)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2017 18:15:55 GMT
I always forget that end times legalized 50% lords all the time. I ignore that and still build (and think apparently) around the 25% restriction.
I don't have my book on hand so I can't comment on how I'd field a DP with a 375 point restriction, but I can when I gain access. Although the short answer I can give you right now is...I wouldn't. IMO a daemon prince that doesn't have...scaled skin, chaos armor, soul feeder, MoN, and flight (if that fits in 375 then you're good, but I don't think it does) is a daemon prince that shouldn't be coming to the table. He needs other things to be truly effective, but those are what I would consider mandatory for him.
The MoN prince is a horde holder. He doesn't kill enough on his own to make a dent, but if he can get into combat with a unit that is WS4 or less and S4 or less then that is where he wants to spend the game. He can happily cast spells all game safe in the knowledge that he's in combat (unless he's in combat with slaves, but I'd be steering for stormvermin or plaguemonks with him; tie up their "hammer" unit all game) They'll need 6's to hit him, 5s or 6's to wound him, and he'll have a 2+ armor save, a 5+ ward save, and he regains wounds in combat on a 6 for each wound he causes. If he loses a combat he's unbreakable so...who cares!
I like the Lore of Nurgle for him as most of the lore is hex's and augments, with the number 6 being a magical vortex. That's a fun one to get off when you're in combat as you can hit a LOT of models with the large template. Also the breath weapon signature spell is also handy for thinning numbers in combat as well.
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Post by gjnoronh on Jun 28, 2017 20:14:38 GMT
I personally like the Tzeentch BSB on daemonic steed with barding. Puts you up to 3 wounds with a 1+ or 2+ save for about the same price. That ward save becomes more pertinent the more wounds you have. You lose the ability to project force quite as far but still not bad at 14 inches. You also get some protection against ballistic skill based shooting by joining a unit.
I think the DP is good for surviving but doesn't put out a lot of damage unless you are facing infantry when he can thunderstomp while casting hexes - ends up being a lot of points in 4 or 5 wound basket.
Agree lore of nurgle / death are quite good. I actually think all the lores chaos can access are pretty good (except maybe tzeentch.) One of the things you struggle with, with chaos often is those small squishy shooting or redirecting unit. Access to magic missiles/direct damage helps. On the other hand hexes/buffs make your killy stuff that much more killy.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2017 22:13:47 GMT
I agree gjnoronh. The Daemon Prince doesn't excel in the killy department (he's good, but not exceptional like other options in the list, among them the chimera, which I'm surprised no one's mentioned yet) but he does excel in the points denial and is a super-effective tarpit. If the opponent is relying on a horde that is WS/S 4 or less then a DP effectively takes that unit out of the game.
That's worth a lot of points to me.
However if you can get past his armor save, then he's super fragile; he's only T5 with 4 wounds and a 5++ save. Again, nurgle magic helps offset this, another reason why I'm a huge fan of the lore of nurgle.
I've only lost my DP once, and that was to a lucky single bolt from a repeater bolt thrower. He'd lost a wound from a miscast suffered earlier in the game.
If your opponent is bringing cannons/bolt throwers you have to be extra cautious with him. Those are his weaknesses. And characters with the 50 point "ignores armor saves" but you never see that anywhere, folks prefer to just beef the strength of the character to make it easier to wound and modify armor at the same time. Can't say I blame them I'm just as guilty.
Agree to all points about the daemonic steed bsb. The 3rd wound is awesome, but the T5 the mount grants is amazing too.
Man...I want to work on my Varanguard again...
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Post by gregwarhamsters on Jun 28, 2017 23:26:00 GMT
+ Lords +Chaos Sorcerer Lord [235pts]: Lore of Tzeentch, Wizard Level 3 Lot of other comments, all useful but if your gonna take a mage make it level 4! More spells, more chance of casting. Easy 35 points spent. Greg P.s. Beer 🍺 goggles on 😊
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Post by strutsagget on Jun 29, 2017 11:19:33 GMT
Update 6points left. Am i missing something on the BSB? Ward save? ++ Standard (Warriors of Chaos - Army Book (2013-4) -V8.8.0.) [1494pts] +++ Lords +Chaos Sorcerer Lord [390pts]: Disc of Tzeentch, Lore of Metal, Mark of Tzeentch, Wizard Level 4 . Chaos Mutations & Powers: Scaled Skin, Third Eye of Tzeentch . Magic Items: BRB - Talisman of Preservation + Heroes +Exalted Hero [200pts]: Battle Standard Bearer, Mark of Tzeentch . Daemonic Mount. . Daemonic Mount: Barding . Magic Items: BRB - Charmed Shield + Core +Chaos Chariot [110pts]Chaos Warhounds [30pts]: 5x Chaos Warhound Chaos Warhounds [30pts]: 5x Chaos Warhound Chaos Warriors [444pts]. Champion . 21x Chaos Warrior: 21x Halberds, 21x Mark of Nurgle . Musician . Standard Bearer: BRB - Banner of Swiftness + Special +Chaos Knights [290pts]: 7x Chaos Knight, Musician ++ Total: [1494pts] ++Created with BattleScribe
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2017 17:42:28 GMT
Looking mean.
Yes, you're absolutely going to want a ward save on your bsb. He's going to be monstrous cavalry which means templates are going to be able to single him out, even if he's in a unit. (cannons and stone throwers are the two you're going to need to worry about)
Here's the defensive loadouts I like:
Sorcerer: Talisman of preservation, enchanted shield third eye, disc of tzeentch. -> 1+ armor save (4+ chaos armor, +2 for the enchanted shield, +1 for being mounted) with a 3++ ward save, rerolling 1's. About as defensive as you can get.
bsb: Daemonic Mount, scaly skin, armor of destiny, shield. -> 1+ armor save (5+ heavy armor, +2 scaly skin, +1 mounted, +1 shield) 3++ ward save.
This kit combination allows for near maximum protection on your two most important characters, the general and the bsb. I would argue that the bsb is more important than the general in WoC for the rerolls as the generals LD is mostly the same as the rest of the army; but the general being a spellcaster (and the only one) does change that back in the sorcerers favor I think.
With WoC these are more often than not the only two characters I take, even in games as large as 2500 points. WoC characters are EXPENSIVE.
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