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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2017 17:12:36 GMT
Spawns are too expensive. They're basically just a T5 3W Random movement monster with no save of any kind. Even elven bowfire takes them out pretty quickly in my experience. The kit is amazing though and I would recommend picking some up based off of that alone. You get SO many mutations off of that kit; I was able to convert 18 River trolls into Chaos Trolls using just two boxes of spawn (yes, there's that many bits). Keep some on hand in case you get them for free, otherwise I wouldn't bother with them. Daemon princes are great fun and worth considering in lists. I wouldn't bring them too much unless you want to keep your friends or they start bring lots of bolt throwers/cannons. I've had my Daemon prince die exactly twice in the years I've used him. Once was to a "sucked into the warp" miscast and the other was a lucky bolt from a bolt thrower that put the last 3 wounds on him (he suffered wounds previously from a miscast). It's also pretty frickin scary when you miscast with him, its a 500+ point model that can potentially just go bye bye with some bad luck. Also I tend to miscast all the time in case anyone has noticed. Usually on 3 dice. My Trolls: My Daemon Prince:
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Post by strutsagget on Aug 17, 2017 19:23:54 GMT
@ryryak So I also though i read somewhere that you could spawn spawns of course the faild ld test on double ones, eye of the god table.
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Post by mottdon on Aug 17, 2017 19:25:37 GMT
I've had my Daemon prince die exactly twice in the years I've used him. Once was to a "sucked into the warp" miscast and the other was a lucky bolt from a bolt thrower that put the last 3 wounds on him (he suffered wounds previously from a miscast). This is why I hate DPs. They're almost an auto-win calculator. I've never beaten one, and only rarely seen one beaten straight up. Even in that instance, the DP player was having the worst luck with rolling! Even as an Empire player, every time I have played a WoC army and faced a DP (one in every list!) I have never managed to shoot one off the board in turn 1. And that's all I get. 1 turn to kill him. He can't be chaffed, his movement is too great and any player worth half his salt will use their chaff to clear a path for him, and once he gets into combat, it's over. Guys on disks, Monstrous Cavalry, chariots, Chimeras and even Giants move rather quickly. And pretty much every DP player I've ever faced had a Charmed Shield so that they can ignore that first Cannon Ball. If you can't tell, I don't like playing against DPs very much. Lol!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2017 19:47:23 GMT
Hence my "keep your friends" comment.
They are notoriously hard to kill in an army of things that are hard to kill. If you can take away their armor save then they're surprisingly fragile though. But that's easier said than done.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2017 19:49:14 GMT
@ryryak So I also though i read somewhere that you could spawn spawns of course the faild ld test on double ones, eye of the god table. I think the Mutalith Vortex beast can? I don't own one and have never used it but I think it's bound spell can create spawn? EDIT: I keep a few around because there's a Beastmen special character that can turn people into spawn with a special ability of his. It's entertaining
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2017 19:55:13 GMT
I've had my Daemon prince die exactly twice in the years I've used him. Once was to a "sucked into the warp" miscast and the other was a lucky bolt from a bolt thrower that put the last 3 wounds on him (he suffered wounds previously from a miscast). This is why I hate DPs. They're almost an auto-win calculator. I've never beaten one, and only rarely seen one beaten straight up. Even in that instance, the DP player was having the worst luck with rolling! Even as an Empire player, every time I have played a WoC army and faced a DP (one in every list!) I have never managed to shoot one off the board in turn 1. And that's all I get. 1 turn to kill him. He can't be chaffed, his movement is too great and any player worth half his salt will use their chaff to clear a path for him, and once he gets into combat, it's over. Guys on disks, Monstrous Cavalry, chariots, Chimeras and even Giants move rather quickly. And pretty much every DP player I've ever faced had a Charmed Shield so that they can ignore that first Cannon Ball. If you can't tell, I don't like playing against DPs very much. Lol! Also I use mine as a tarpit, not necessarily an "I win" button. With his WS9, T5 and the MoN I look for a unit that is WS4, and S4 or less. His goal is to fly into combat with that unit and effectively take them out of the game. They'll need 6's to hit him, 5's or 6's to wound him and he'll have a 2+ AS and a 5+ Ward against what few wounds will trickle through. Doesn't matter if I win combat or not as he's unbreakable. With having to challenge every round characters that are a threat are typically dealt with quickly. The Killing in my lists are done by my other units; the Trolls/Dragon Ogres/Skullcrushers/Chimeras. (He only comes out in my theme lists, that theme being MONSTERS!)
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Post by strutsagget on Aug 19, 2017 15:45:25 GMT
So I read somewhere to use 7 warriors in a row. Can't remeber where or who said it though. Is this good and if why? Im thinking if i should run 4 rows of 5 instead and free up for a bs in the cavalry. Or if there were a good reason to run 3 rows of 7
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Post by knoffles on Aug 19, 2017 17:49:00 GMT
Warriors have 2 attacks but models in the 2nd rank only get 1 supporting attack so having more models in the front rank potentially maximises their attacks.
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Post by Naitsabes on Aug 19, 2017 17:57:07 GMT
what knoffles said. but, it really depends on who you are up against. if you are facing 5wide on 20mm bases that seventh chaos warrior is idling. in general, don't get stuck in a rut of a formation game after game after game. adapt. and, reform during the game as needed.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2017 16:32:49 GMT
6 wide if you're fighting 20mm bases, 7 wide if you're up against 25mm bases.
This gives the maximum number of attacks if you're up against a unit that's 5 wide.
If they go wider then you should go wider too. The more attacks you can bring to bear the better because you have 2/3 high quality attacks per Warrior, and anyone not in the front rank is paying for 1/2 attacks each that they're not using. ( /frenzy from MoK)
5 wide is good if you're looking to break steadfast; although we really can't bring the numbers into combat that would make this tactic effective. Unless you brought some Marauders specifically for this purpose.
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Post by grandmasterwang on Aug 21, 2017 16:48:50 GMT
This is why I hate DPs. They're almost an auto-win calculator. I've never beaten one, and only rarely seen one beaten straight up. Even in that instance, the DP player was having the worst luck with rolling! Even as an Empire player, every time I have played a WoC army and faced a DP (one in every list!) I have never managed to shoot one off the board in turn 1. And that's all I get. 1 turn to kill him. He can't be chaffed, his movement is too great and any player worth half his salt will use their chaff to clear a path for him, and once he gets into combat, it's over. Guys on disks, Monstrous Cavalry, chariots, Chimeras and even Giants move rather quickly. And pretty much every DP player I've ever faced had a Charmed Shield so that they can ignore that first Cannon Ball. If you can't tell, I don't like playing against DPs very much. Lol! Also I use mine as a tarpit, not necessarily an "I win" button. With his WS9, T5 and the MoN I look for a unit that is WS4, and S4 or less. His goal is to fly into combat with that unit and effectively take them out of the game. They'll need 6's to hit him, 5's or 6's to wound him and he'll have a 2+ AS and a 5+ Ward against what few wounds will trickle through. Doesn't matter if I win combat or not as he's unbreakable. With having to challenge every round characters that are a threat are typically dealt with quickly. The Killing in my lists are done by my other units; the Trolls/Dragon Ogres/Skullcrushers/Chimeras. (He only comes out in my theme lists, that theme being MONSTERS!) Yeah the WOC Daemon Prince is such bs. That's why in my gaming group we play the WOC Prince the same as the DOC Prince, Daemonic Instability but stubbon. Still an incredibly rude choice but much less offensive Can't tarpit with complete impunity anymore. I quite like the Warriors of Chaos book overall but the Daemon Prince was an error in judgement for sure. Funny story, the first game where we brought rule change in....many years ago now. The WOC player who had agreed unbreakable Daemon Princes were obscenely broken and agreed to Stubborn Instability.... rolled a double 6 on his very first break test and popped his prince. 😀😂 "Ah...why did I agree to that rule again" 😁 ...as he removed his formerly full health Daemon Prince model. A classic moment.
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Post by grandmasterwang on Aug 21, 2017 16:57:16 GMT
So I read somewhere to use 7 warriors in a row. Can't remeber where or who said it though. Is this good and if why? Im thinking if i should run 4 rows of 5 instead and free up for a bs in the cavalry. Or if there were a good reason to run 3 rows of 7 I think it's ok, I've seen 7 wide warriors used effectively before and in a massive 2 vs 2 where I played with my mates WOC I actually went 7 wide (mainly because he had 2 units of 21 and they looked best 7 wide I thought) My thoughts were that potentially they can out output a horde of plebs(all 7 can attack), and in the game we played they fought 5 wide cavalry and all 7 being able to fight helped a great deal. The Mark of Tzeentch halberd guys were charged by a unit of around 15 Empire Knights, and they survived the first round doing considerable damage and striking before the Knights with 22 attacks helped blunt the charge. Can't remember but I think they killed a priest. Eventually the WOC Tzeentchien warriors broke and ran down the Knights all in their fancy 7 wide formation.
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Bluke
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Post by Bluke on Aug 22, 2017 12:52:13 GMT
Looking pretty strong. I think the nastiest things, although hardly origanal thinking on my part, are something like:
- Deamon Prince (Nurgle) with flight, charmed shield, dragonbane gem, chaos armour, scaly skin, soulfeeder, level 4 wizard, chaos familiar. Add sword of striking or other trickers shard to taste.
I prefer Slaanesh myself because I love the spells, but the DP above would be the standard.
Then as noted above theres the 3+ ward save tzeentch BSB who rerolls ones. The argument here is whether he gets a disc or a daemonic mount. I prefer the latter- it makes him much harder to kill. I used the disc for 10 or so games and he died in most of them. The daemonic mount I've played in 5 or 6 and he's never died. In one game the bugger was so tough he took all 10 wounds of a steam tank and wasn't killed by it, despite it splatting him every turn. Daemonic mount for regular chaos hero is excellent too.
The other very strong thing int he list, apart from Throgg and the trolls is to my mind the core chariots. Take them unmarked for cost, and they really are very good. Gorebeast ones are also excellent. And then Chimeras too of course, and I really like the Hellcannon.
I think the cheesiest list I can imagine for WoC has no infantry at all, and just has chariots, DP, Chimera, unkillable BSB, additional heroes on daemonic mounts, and maybe some skullcrushers if you felt like it. In 1500 you wouldn't get all that of course but that's the principle.
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Post by mottdon on Aug 22, 2017 13:03:50 GMT
Is it even possible to run a DP and unkillable BSB in a 1500 point game? I have no idea what their point costs are, just that I've heard that they're very expensive.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2017 16:41:57 GMT
With 50% it's possible. You could run the DP lite and possibly skip out on some minor upgrades for both characters. It would be tight though to get both with 750 points to spend.
Actually I guess if you passed on a couple magic levels for the DP it would be pretty possible, maybe make him a lvl 2 then pass on soul feeder and any other "superfluous" upgrades like the sword of striking/other trickster shard.
Really the important ones are: Chaos armor flight scaly skin charmed shield dragonbane gem
Everything else could be cut if points are light, although the first thing I would add would be soul feeder so he could (potentially) regain wounds. Against my chosen targets he never takes wounds though so I've found this upgrade to be optional.
But dang a DP at 1500? You really must not like your friends.
And I agree about instability on the WoC Daemon Prince. Stubborn LD9 with Daemonic Instability is a fair way to handle him instead of straight up unbreakable.
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