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Post by frozenfood on Apr 6, 2017 7:06:47 GMT
Well, from personal experience: HE win every time (we don't have WOC). I even went on Ulthuan.net to get some tips on how to beat HE. Apparently in the rest of the universe, they get beaten sometimes Usually they don't appear in the top tier, glad to see you guys do put them at the top
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2017 19:52:23 GMT
Bronzino's Gun could only 'move and shoot' in the 5th edition, but the rule was scrapped since the 6th as 'it was too over-powered'. The Ironblaster cost merely 130 pts for all godly goodness while the whole Bronzino team with a puny gun cost a whooping 165 pts. Easily the best (i.e. borderline broken) gun in the entire game! I personally played a very nice gent at a Tourney. This Tourney was quite close to the advent of AoS. Well, he was nice enough but he played some seriously WAAC games with his Ironblaster that I did not like. >> He had a pocket laser pointer and the "Lines of Sight" he drew with it would originate in a very obscure corner of the base of his Ironblaster for some very, IMHO, unfair shots. He would use the head of the actual model to determine true line of sight and then draw whatever geometric theoretical line he wanted. Typically, this meant he was able to draw a line through 4 of my Demigryphs at any given time. This was (1) a gaming advantage for him and (2) took a lot of time and (3) felt very NOT in the spirit of the game. I am never one to call a TO so I just played on (and won). That one game soured me on the Ironblaster forever. A cannon that can move, and move SEVEN to boot, and still shoot a S10 cannonball? Whatever. I had similar experiences, but for me the antagonists were Vampire Counts. I'm forever soured on the undead (vampire variety) because of dual-terrorgheists with large blocks of grave-guard (great weapons naturally) and ghouls filling up the core. Nice enough guys, but I didn't really enjoy fighting their lists. Grave Guard are another reason I stopped taking infantry in my core. Enjoy your killing blow now!
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Post by vulcan on Apr 6, 2017 20:38:27 GMT
Bronzino's Gun could only 'move and shoot' in the 5th edition, but the rule was scrapped since the 6th as 'it was too over-powered'. The Ironblaster cost merely 130 pts for all godly goodness while the whole Bronzino team with a puny gun cost a whooping 165 pts. Easily the best (i.e. borderline broken) gun in the entire game! I personally played a very nice gent at a Tourney. This Tourney was quite close to the advent of AoS. Well, he was nice enough but he played some seriously WAAC games with his Ironblaster that I did not like. >> He had a pocket laser pointer and the "Lines of Sight" he drew with it would originate in a very obscure corner of the base of his Ironblaster for some very, IMHO, unfair shots. He would use the head of the actual model to determine true line of sight and then draw whatever geometric theoretical line he wanted. Typically, this meant he was able to draw a line through 4 of my Demigryphs at any given time. This was (1) a gaming advantage for him and (2) took a lot of time and (3) felt very NOT in the spirit of the game. I am never one to call a TO so I just played on (and won). That one game soured me on the Ironblaster forever. A cannon that can move, and move SEVEN to boot, and still shoot a S10 cannonball? Whatever. He was breaking the rules. The rules clearly state cannons draw LOS from the end of the barrel, not anywhere on the base. HE get a lot of hate because of the overuse of White Lion Deathstars (WS 5 strike on I5 with S6, 3+ save) carrying the Banner of the Crutch Dragon. You have to be able to get the unit that CAN take it in close combat (if you have one) past their chaff and into it, while the HE player is trying his best to keep your one unit that can take it (if you have one) away from it while it eats everything ELSE on the board.
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Post by mahbruck on Apr 7, 2017 2:45:24 GMT
HE get a lot of hate because of the overuse of White Lion Deathstars (WS 5 strike on I5 with S6, 3+ save) carrying the Banner of the Crutch Dragon. You have to be able to get the unit that CAN take it in close combat (if you have one) past their chaff and into it, while the HE player is trying his best to keep your one unit that can take it (if you have one) away from it while it eats everything ELSE on the board. 37 White Lions (banner of World Dragon) with Alarielle, Alith Anar and Seahelm BSB with Banner of Avelorn is the ultimate deathstar of the 8th Edition. Wish I would try it once but the painting requirement forbids
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Post by Anaris on Apr 7, 2017 3:15:46 GMT
37 White Lions (banner of World Dragon) with Alarielle, Alith Anar and Seahelm BSB with Banner of Avelorn is the ultimate deathstar of the 8th Edition. Wish I would try it once but the painting requirement forbids Geezes qryst Didn't know that was a thing.
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Post by frozenfood on Apr 7, 2017 6:43:52 GMT
It's mainly the ASF with rerolls that makes them great. Combine that with a Phoenix guard with 3+ ward save(high magic) and a Frostchicken and bob's your uncle.
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Post by wilsonthenarc on Apr 7, 2017 13:00:11 GMT
RE: White Lions Deathstar - - -
In theory, a unit of 50 Dwarf Hammerers could be up to the task. It would come down to the dice. They can take some beatings and they can dish it out. They rank up, 20mmx20mm, and they can be buffed as a unit with runes.
Another contender would be a unit of 24 Ushabti with Great Weapons. Only if they were led by a Necrotect to give them hatred and re-rolls to hit. And only if they had the +1 A buff spell. Also, the Tomb Kings player can bring back Ushabti with buff spells. And they're undead, so they'll never run away.
Maybe a similar sized block of Crypt Horrors. With a close-by corpse cart and a few other funky synergies coming in for support.
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Post by gjnoronh on Apr 7, 2017 14:37:43 GMT
You can potentially crack it with a lot of points focused against it. However it tends to be able to impact the game (from the spellcasting) at a distance more so then other combat bricks. It also tends to be backed with more quality chaff and shooting then many combat bricks (though the examples you gave above mostly have good support options.)
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Post by grandmasterwang on Apr 7, 2017 14:53:06 GMT
RE: White Lions Deathstar - - - In theory, a unit of 50 Dwarf Hammerers could be up to the task. It would come down to the dice. They can take some beatings and they can dish it out. They rank up, 20mmx20mm, and they can be buffed as a unit with runes. Another contender would be a unit of 24 Ushabti with Great Weapons. Only if they were led by a Necrotect to give them hatred and re-rolls to hit. And only if they had the +1 A buff spell. Also, the Tomb Kings player can bring back Ushabti with buff spells. And they're undead, so they'll never run away. Maybe a similar sized block of Crypt Horrors. With a close-by corpse cart and a few other funky synergies coming in for support. Regarding your example of contenders, both of which i would love to see on the table .... is that they are both slower than the Lionstar and more importantly.... they hit very hard.... too hard in fact... bear with me.... One of the things which makes the Lionstar with the BOTWD so rude as opposed to a Gutstar is that behind it all... they are still just puny toughness 3, 5+ armor save elves... it's basically a waste/not optimal to throw strength 6+ units against the buggers.... especially when there are toughness 6 Phoenix's flying around....and yet the Lionstar punches so far above its weight that you (if you plan on taking it out in combat, rather than avoiding it) really need to commit a ridiculously powerful unit or number of points to take it out.... and if you do beat it and outnumber it.... it's stubborn anyway due to White Lions. The Lionstar I most remember was the regrowth/buffed one..... eeew 24 Ushabi with great weapons is such an amazing 1200 point unit (more with a Necrotect) that it would be a waste to use vs the cheapass Lionstar. Unfortunately in a WAAC environment I'd still bet on the Lions as they could kill the Necrotect robbing the Ushabti of their rerolls and one bad combat round for the statues would have a devastating crumble result. I'd be going for the statues of course. In my Chillhammer group we gave the Banner of the World Dragon an additional rule.... it only worked if there was a friendly dragon within 24 Worked a treat. The links to some other tournament results in this thread reminded me just how devastating Vampire Counts could be with the screams into combat.. I can't believe i forgot. Ironblaster was mentioned before..... which ties into Waac 8th Daemons which were considered unreliable but Nurgle armies were strong. Waac players would generallt field basically a mono Nurgle army with what is imo the single most broken/op unit of 8th Edition (thanks Matt Ward you pleb!... wasn't it enough for you to kill 7th edition with Daemons)......the........ Skull Cannon of Khorne (aka Khannon as dubbed by myself at the time)... a moving cannon so OP at a mere immune to psychology, 5+ ward save, killing blow in combat 135 points it made the Ironblaster look 'underpowered' and 'overcosted'. This broken POS unit is basically the sole reason some people considered Daemons top tier/OP in 8th Edition. Seriously.....this unit is my most hated unit of 8th Edition... and I don't even like the way the model looks particularly as a potential saving grace. You look at any tournament placing 8th Edition Daemons of Chaos list and they would include at least one (generally 2) of these broken Eyesores. Now i love my beastmen..... but you take a look at the 275 point Cygor... compare it with the harder to kill via shooting Khannon which is less than half of it's points and you too will want to slap Matt Ward. If you play Empire... enjoy your stationary, weak in close combat, easy to break/panic 120 point cannon... Matt Ward just took a fart on your face. Im going to have to post the rules on here for this Abomination so you can all see what I'm talking about.
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Post by grandmasterwang on Apr 7, 2017 15:46:21 GMT
....f Matt Ward..... seriously. Honestly even if you removed the cannon completely (which has a BS 5 close range shrapnel shot due to the Bloodletters btw) it would still be an amazing steal of a chariot at 135 points, one of the best in the game in fact imo. 4 wounds, 3+ armor save, 5+ ward save, Weaponskill 5, toughness 5, 5 attacks in close combat with the chance to regain wounds on impact hits..... remove the cannon altogether and still I'd field it if it looked decent. Games Workshop clearly lost the plot with that one or were trying to sell some subpar models with OP rules. Obscene..... simply obscene!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2017 16:36:51 GMT
grandmasterwangYou've convinced me about the Khorne chariot. Our local daemon player had one but I never saw him take it, he preferred his Slaanesh chariots and plaguebearers/bloodletters/soulgrinders. I forgot another Vampire Count shenanigan, this one was kinda pricy and didn't work all that great but when it did... Zombie/skeleton bus with 5 Wraiths in the front rank. You're screwed if you don't have magical attacks as you can't hurt the wraiths. leaving the entire unit free to just attack you all day long...
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Post by mahbruck on Apr 7, 2017 19:05:57 GMT
The Khannon is broke AF indeed! By the way, the Lionstar I mentioned above is not cheapass at all, 1330 pts to be precise. In return, they have a moving bolt thrower, 2++ vs magical, 5++ vs mundane, -1 to be hit at shooting, swiftstrike, free-reform and Alarielle can pump the unit or nuke their foes at +8 spells (and she can heal automatically as well). All this goodness asides from tons of WS5 Str6 hit at Ini 6. And Stubborn. I still think no other deathstar unit at the same point (or even 100 pts more) can have the same impact or beat these mofos head on. I'm interested to see some more ghastly combos you guys can concoct to counter them.
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Post by Horace on Apr 7, 2017 19:30:03 GMT
The skull cannon is awful, both to look at and rules wise. It is one of the more op things in 8th but I can still tolerate it, it doesn't break the game. BOTWD is my single least favourite thing. Whoever thought that up as it is and thought it was ok is clearly idiotic or just downright lazy
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2017 20:11:35 GMT
I'd be fine with it at its point cost if it only worked against spells. What moron thought it would be a good idea to give an entire unit a 2++ vs magical weapons/attacks? Its 7th edition version made the unit completely immune to spells. And if I remember correctly your mage couldn't cast spells if he was bunkered in that unit.
It's completely changed in 8th, and not for the better.
In it's current incarnation it should cost to the point that it's only takeable on a bsb.
That's my major gripe with it, it should only be allowed on a bsb.
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Post by Horace on Apr 7, 2017 20:22:18 GMT
It is super lame as it makes the unit basically immune to Daemons. Anyone with any decency would not take the banner against DoC
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