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Post by knoffles on Sept 14, 2017 17:47:17 GMT
I assume the issue with spears is the added cost to upgrade and the loss of the parry save, outweigh any benefits of the extra attacks?
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Post by Horace on Sept 14, 2017 18:54:47 GMT
It is a decision to make with all poor quality infantry, even when the swap is free in points. My goblins and skeleton spearmen always have the dilemma
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Post by mottdon on Sept 14, 2017 21:15:31 GMT
It really makes you think that the BRB writers just forgot to include a rule with spears...something that would counter the obvious nerf to dropping your shields. One additional rank just doesn't cut it in a game where units can churn out the attacks.
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theunheard
New Member
Old gamer, restarted late in 8th - didn't like AoS
Posts: 14
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Post by theunheard on Sept 15, 2017 22:54:05 GMT
It really makes you think that the BRB writers just forgot to include a rule with spears...something that would counter the obvious nerf to dropping your shields. One additional rank just doesn't cut it in a game where units can churn out the attacks. Exactly. Personally I'd prefer to see some additional rules regarding weapon as a whole, maybe +3 Initiative when using a lance as it's more likely to hit home before you get to strike, maybe the same sort of thing so spears, +1S against mounted enemies as you've bedded them in when receiving the charge (as well as the extra attack) I can see the point of making hand weapons and shields more attractive to take though Will
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Post by mottdon on Sept 16, 2017 1:34:35 GMT
Heck, I'd even go as far as to say Spears get +1S and force a dangerous terrain check when charged.
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Post by gregwarhamsters on Sept 16, 2017 7:16:39 GMT
Not sure I could justify the dangerous terrain but most certainly +1S vs mounted models.
Personally the losing of the parry save in this edition swings it for me, the only real army I have able to take spears would be my TK, most enemy units will negate my armour and point for point I get less skeletons. The parry save is a kick in the teeth for my opponent. Remember when I lose a combat I crumble so its like my men are double in number
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Post by mottdon on Sept 16, 2017 8:59:34 GMT
Very true. I don't think it'd be so bad for TK if they had access to easy spells to bring Skeletons back (and even grow beyond their starting point). That's one reason I really like the additional rules Kevin wrote for them. It really helps mitigate some of the TKs weaknesses, IMHO.
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Post by wilsonthenarc on Sept 16, 2017 13:38:53 GMT
How 'bout this: Troops defined as "Infantry" armed with spears gain the ASF rule (always strikes first) for the first round of combat when they are charged by troops defined as "Cavalry". If they already have ASF, they get +1 to hit.
I always think of the scene in BRAVEHEART with the wooden spears laying on the ground of the battlefield, being picked up by the Scots at the last possible second to hose the English charge. Memorable imagery.
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Post by mottdon on Sept 17, 2017 12:01:52 GMT
HA! Me too!
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Post by vulcan on Sept 17, 2017 22:49:45 GMT
The trick is, how far can you boost spears without making the spear vs. Bretonnia battle a recreation of BotWD vs. Demons of Chaos?
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Post by gregwarhamsters on Sept 18, 2017 19:49:45 GMT
Here we head into historical accounts, I'm not an expert but in the film brave heart what I suspect they really wanted was pikes. These are about 18' long and as such I can see the ASF working, however if cavalry have spears and infantry have spears it kinda cancels out - but what about impact hits? Then consider the fact lances are longer than spears, after all spears were also intended to be thrown from tine to time. Roman sowsrs had the bendy point to stick in the shields of their enemies slowing them down and also making it harder to throw the spear back. I suppose the +1S is the impact hit...
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Post by mottdon on Sept 18, 2017 20:16:04 GMT
I suppose the +1S is the impact hit... I think this is the case. Giving the infantry +1S against the charge could account for the dangerous terrain aspect. That much weight being thrown against a spear will do some damage (crush the spear in the process, but still...) If they both got it, I think the infantry would come out the better since there are simply more of them in most cases. Honestly, game-wise, that probably wouldn't be a good thing since it would push the game toward bringing even more infantry than it already is. What if the cavalry unit gained impact hits as do chariots? # of impact hits = number of models in the front row in base contact with an enemy unit.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2017 20:59:50 GMT
9th Age did a good job here.
Spears have "lethal strike" against charging cavalry. Basically a 6 to wound causes a single wound with no armor saves.
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Post by vulcan on Sept 18, 2017 21:39:04 GMT
And their not-Bretonnia got nothing to compensate.
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Post by knoffles on Sept 19, 2017 6:40:20 GMT
As Greg/Mottdon suggests impact hits from cav would make sense. Perhaps only from barded cav though (as light cav have a different role and wouldn't normally be riding the heavy destriers (if that's what they are called) but more nimble mounts). Monstrous cav would then get impact (2/D3?) to represent their greater size. It could even be that for each rank after the first you add +1 Str to the impact (something like the Ogre rule). That could help to make mass cav more appealing.
So a unit of 5 cav would get 5 s3 impacts. A unit of 10 (2*5) would get 5 S4 impact hits etc. Perhaps to get the additional Str you must have a full rank. I could see some peeps going conga to 'game' the rule. There would also need to be a cap, maybe 3 ranks, so +3 Str (again not sure if the bull charge rule covers these circumstances). Brets would work the same way but it would take into consideration their 'lance' formation so for 6 Knights (2*3) they could get 3 S4 hits.
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