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Post by grandmasterwang on Dec 13, 2017 15:14:49 GMT
They have certainly learned a little bit from their Fantasy failures with 40k and AOS.
Case in point, Army books for either 40k or AOS are cheaper to buy now than what Games Workshop previously were charging people for 8th Edition fantasy army books. Lower the barriers of entry and the people will come. Unfortunately the 8th Edition of Fantasy was accompanied by a whole range of decisions by Games Workshop which made it harder and more expensive for people to get into the hobby. Warhammer Fantasy was unfortunately accompanied by increasingly price gouging tactics coupled with pathetic customer communication....a terrible combination for any business.
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Post by gjnoronh on Dec 15, 2017 2:37:12 GMT
I hear the complaint but during thane same era 40K did well with sales run by the same company. The rules set of 7th ed 40K was much more a mess the 8th WFB but it still sold lots of models. Something going on there beyond bad company management
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Post by mottdon on Dec 15, 2017 2:54:15 GMT
Aside from the vastly reduced requirement to get into a game of 40K, GW marketed the heck out of 40K! I must've seen 30 40K adds for every Fantasy advertisement that came out. No wonder it outsold Fantasy.
Now compare 40K games success with those of Fantasy (aka - Total War).
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Post by gjnoronh on Dec 15, 2017 14:08:35 GMT
Chicken and egg question though. Were they pushing 40K because it sold well, or did it sell well because they pushed it. I think if GW thought they could make money off WFB they would have tried to. The AoS switch was a much more drastic step then just putting more advertisements out.
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Post by wilsonthenarc on Dec 15, 2017 14:18:50 GMT
I think (with little known fact to back this up mind you) that: --Someone at GW got really pissed off at "Rip Off" miniatures, i.e. Mantic and Bones and others --Yes, generic fantasy miniatures are easy to interchange and use in different systems, oooops --They wanted to make a game and property that couldn't be ripped off, one they could control 100% --I actually bet someone at GW bumped into someone at Mantic at a pub and they had a few pints and this turned into a grudge match --We, true believers, are the rank and file pawns that were sacrificed in this corporate pissing contest
GW got drunk, got pissed, and then took their ball and went home.
Or more accurately, they switched from a volleyball to a tennis ball - totally different game. AoS is a totally different ballgame.
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Post by mottdon on Dec 15, 2017 15:47:30 GMT
GW got drunk, got pissed, and then took their ball and went home.. ^LOL, this!!! But you are 100% accurate with the IP thing. There are TONS of reasons why their profits weren't as good as 40K's but what it boils down to is that Fantasy was simply too generic. They couldn't stop people from copying them and undercutting their prices. That forced them to spend more money on better production methods and when other companies (like Avatars of War) started making models that were just as good, if not better, then they tried to sue for IP. Once they lost that battle, they decided to leave the game behind, take their ball and told everyone, "Well, we're going to be playing over here with this new game we just made up! You can come and join us if you want, but we won't be playing that game anymore!" This is the main reason that I refuse to play AoS. I don't like someone pitching a tantrum and forcing me to play their game. And for what? So that they can sue people for giving me more options? I don't think so.
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Post by grandmasterwang on Dec 20, 2017 1:55:10 GMT
I hear the complaint but during thane same era 40K did well with sales run by the same company. The rules set of 7th ed 40K was much more a mess the 8th WFB but it still sold lots of models. Something going on there beyond bad company management 40k sales also dropped during that period I heard substantially volumewise. It was only price rises which kept the gross income up. Games Workshop tried really hard to push 40k during that period as well, releasing 2 versions of the game (6th and 7th). Historically a new version of 40k gave a big sales boost. Releasing 7th 40k when they did I saw as somewhat of a desperation move by GW as previously 40k editions had a much longer shelf life. So I am of the opinion that GW also mishandled 40k during this period despite devoting the majority of their resources to 40k over Fantasy. Look at how 40k is doing now compared to back then for an example. As an anecdote, I have a client who ran a gamestore (mostly GW) and he really suffered due to GW mismanagement during this period and has now unfortunately had to close his business down as the sales just fell off, in a large part due to GW decisions.
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Post by knoffles on Dec 21, 2017 13:47:18 GMT
I was looking at a ‘new’ (for me) blog the other day and came across this guys post about the island of blood starter set. It’s an interesting perspective on how the starter set wasn’t at all user friendly for new players in comparison to 40k one at the time. Now I never bought the starter set so can’t comment on it but thought I’d share. twilight40k.blogspot.co.uk/2010/08/isle-of-blood-starter-box.html?m=1
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Post by mottdon on Dec 21, 2017 14:08:54 GMT
Well...I think he makes a few good points regarding adding start-up, simple scenarios for a newcomer to play and learn the game, but I think he was just expecting to open the box and play. He didn't understand the rules and that was obvious. Basically, he was saying, "I really like the look and idea of playing a massed battle game, I just don't want to put the effort into learning all the rules." He needs a veteran player to spoon-feed his games to him.
Also, assembling and painting your army miniatures is part of the game. He admitted to liking the idea of playing a horde army (Skaven) but didn't want to put the effort into building them. This is a hobby game. It doesn't come assembled. It takes time and patience. He obviously doesn't want/have either of those. He needs a game like Heroclix where you just open a box and start playing.
I rarely pay much attention to people who complain about learning rules because 99% of the time, these are the same people who will drop the game and go play the newest "shiny" game that comes out, as long as there are others there who can explain it to him. Not worth my effort.
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Post by knoffles on Dec 21, 2017 14:40:13 GMT
It was more the step by step play through bit I found interesting. I had it the other way, playing my first game of 40k in 7th I found the number of cod exes needed just for one army completely barmy and so many of the rules were just backwards after playing fantasy. Why were there two movement phases? See totally bonkers 😉
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Post by strutsagget on Dec 21, 2017 15:13:05 GMT
I do see the point though. A starter set needs to be better at bringing people into the game. We all need the beginners to buy the game, or it will be removed from the shelf and discontinued.
Both easy to assembled models and fast rules are needed to ease people into the hobby.
Making the most cool unit in the set being not allowed within the rules is kind of shitty 😊
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Post by gjnoronh on Dec 21, 2017 15:46:47 GMT
I quite like the move to easy snap fit models for starter sets in Blood Bowl, Shadespire recently. With color coded sprues (Green/Blue/Red) instead of grey for everyone you can start playing as soon as you clip and snap fit the models together.
In general my feedback on the survey was 'make it easier to get folks in who aren't in the hobby at all' For too long the focus has been on catering to the already addicted masses.
Watching the feedback on the new 9th Age Beta 2.0 rules really drives this home. They are purely catering to 8th edition players and just layering the rules to cover more esoteric situations. Totally works for committed tournament players. What they aren't doing is making WFB easier to get new folks into.
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Post by mottdon on Dec 21, 2017 16:26:05 GMT
It seems like games like Shadespire, then AoS are stepstones to larger and larger games, culminating in a game like 8th edition. Something for everyone. I just wish they still supported 8th so that it wouldn't be called "dead".
You go much less than Shadespyre model count, you get into DnD territory.
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Post by gjnoronh on Dec 21, 2017 17:03:27 GMT
I actually think AoS is surprisingly complex - the starter rules are simple but that's intentional they kept the complicated rules details attached to specific unit entries/scenery/scenarios. The size of the armies was actually fairly large at 2000 points at Da Boyz. Lots of units of 20-40 models in most armies.
What I like about AoS is you don't need to read 200+ pages to get started. Read the base rules and then pull out some units and play 'open' games. If you want to play with a unit the rules are right there in that unit's entry. If you play with Kroak you need to read his unit entry to understand his unique spells and rules. If you want to use a Temple of Skulls terrain piece you need to use the specific scenery rules for that terrain piece.
4 pages of base rules. Army books and free scenery downloads for unique scenery with additional rules for each 20 pages or so for tournament play in a yearly updated supplement 40 or so of ideas for scenario play in a yearly updated supplment 20 or so of ideas for for 'open play' in a yearly updated supplement 10 pages or so of warband rules in a yearly updated supplement with additional bits in each army book.
Shadespire warbands are 3-7 models. That's probably less then DND territory particularly if 2 three model warbands are facing off.
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Post by strutsagget on Dec 21, 2017 17:19:39 GMT
mottdon I don't mean to make the full game any less or add-one fewer details or less of a hobby. Just that it needs to be a more natural way to get started and learn the rules. But now they have AoS for that, WFB can be the specialist game. I would wholeheartedly approve if they released it with/at forge world. But think we agree on that 😊 anything goes as long as they revive it in any way.
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