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Post by strutsagget on Oct 18, 2018 5:57:19 GMT
Welcome beef. I know your frustration as I continuously face a lot of WarMachines. You need to be prepared with a way to deal with them. Some of the monsters are still good, and everyone doesn't one shot on the turn 1, it happens, but the opposite does happen too as much. And after they hit but don't kill a monster with 4+ wounds.
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Post by knoffles on Oct 18, 2018 8:49:18 GMT
Part of the issue is perhaps less to do with cannons and more to do with the weakness of the majority of monsters. Even with cannons, Chimeras were often found flapping around, fly and the regen were enough to offset any weakness. The issue with most of them I think are a lack of wounds and toughness (or if not toughness, the ability of anything to wound on a 6+). Most great weapon troops could wound them easily and even mass attacks by zombies/‘insert other low Str shit melee or ranged troop type’ could bring one down over a few turns. In combat, steadfast would almost ensure they didn’t run.
Even playing dwarves a lot, I’ve found cannons to be unreliable (that could be down to my normally poor single dice rolls).
If I could change anything (whilst not touching the wound roll table), I’d probably like to see any monster that doesn’t fall within the heroes and lords allowance, that cannot fly, have at least 8-10 wounds and at a 5+ save to help mitigate the ‘pinprick’ attacks.
I’m sure there are half a ton of them that I’ve not thought of that this would now make OP but I’m thinking giants and the like.
I do actually like having the 6 always wounds chance, as it is the David vs Goliath chance of the underdog taking down the big guy.
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Post by Horace on Oct 18, 2018 9:47:52 GMT
Personally, the only change I would deem necessary is the randomisation of the hit between rider and mount in the case of a Ridden Monster. This would be the easiest and most simple "fix". I think it would have been the fairest approach if we had ever got an 8.5/9th edition. I am not a super big fan of the laser guided targeting purely from a gaming perspective, I think it should have to roll to hit or guess range (or something anyway) Cannons have to be able to kill big stuff, it is their only purpose in the game really, otherwise what is the point in them at all? You usually only get 2 turns of shooting at something half decent, if you keep your large ticket item safe for at least one of those turns the chances are you will probably survive and your opponent has wasted x points.
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beef
New Member
Posts: 3
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Post by beef on Oct 18, 2018 10:28:46 GMT
well as my friend has put this discussion thread in the rules question section for some reason maybe it could get moved or started again in the correct section
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Post by strutsagget on Oct 18, 2018 12:22:22 GMT
KevinC feel free to move this post if you feel it necessary/proper
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Post by KevinC on Oct 18, 2018 13:04:21 GMT
I suspect that may be down to the difference between how you think the rules should work and how they actually work. 1) Issues with line of sight are usually due to how LoS is defined in the 8th edition: it is a general problem, not one limited to cannon. Problems can easily be resolved by using a laserpointer. And do not forget: cannon require LoS to the target point, i.e. the point x-inches in front of where you want the bounce to begin. The target of the cannon is NOT the unit(s) it wants to hit. Personally, the only change I would deem necessary is the randomisation of the hit between rider and mount in the case of a Ridden Monster. ------------As FvonSigmaringen points out, #1 above is extremely important and does help to "balance" cannons. Many players ignore that they need to see the actual point they are targeting. When players are getting the rules right, cannons can be a bit more tricky to target. At least, a bit more tricky to target the precise spot the cannon player wants - that "10 inches from the back of the model's base" is not always so easy to do. Cannons have always been really powerful WFB, the 8th edition change I never liked is that both rider and mount are hit for ridden monsters. Previous additions randomized so you were hitting the rider or monster, not both. This rule provided further protection for the rider, since the rider was only hit 1/3 of the time. Even stone throwers randomize the center point of the attack. On the mitigation side in 8th edition, however, is that obstacle terrain and monstrous infantry can block a bouncing cannon ball. This is big deal. Players with a precious monster should be using this rule to their advantage by setting up the monster behind an obstacle (i.e. fence, low wall, etc.) or behind a unit of Monstrous Infantry. I typically set up Grom's chariot behind a wall of Trolls, this helps a lot! Another good tactic is to build your list to make several tempting targets for the cannon, making your opponent choose from a range of good or monstrous targets. I used this tactic to great success in the old tournament days. My main issue with cannons, is that may tournament players (especially on the old tournament scene) did not take monsters or ridden monsters BECAUSE of cannons. It was deemed too risky. On top of that, if you do have a ridden monster, a player will feel compelled to have to give them a 4+ ward, else it becomes too risky. If the cannon ball was randomized between rider and monster (like it use to be), the ward save is not as crucial, because the rider is harder to hit. The model had to be first struck by the cannon ball, then a roll of 5+ was need to strike the character (that was good protection). You can live with the monster suffering a few wounds, but the 3 Wound rider can't. The End Times ridden monsters combined ride & monster profile was a clever way to fix this as well.
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Post by KevinC on Oct 18, 2018 14:06:01 GMT
A good house rule could also be: the model struck from the initial shot take the S10 D6 Wounds hit, but each model hit on the bounce only suffers D3 Wounds, or even 1 Wound, or a lower Strength value similar to how a bolt thrower Strength value lowers at it pierces ranks.
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Post by wilsonthenarc on Oct 18, 2018 15:11:57 GMT
A good house rule could also be: the model struck from the initial shot take the S10 D6 Wounds hit, but each model hit on the bounce only suffers D3 Wounds, or even 1 Wound, or a lower Strength value similar to how a bolt thrower Strength value lowers at it pierces ranks. I would vote for that, but I suspect Rich and Dan will vote AGAINST. LOL. Another good house rule would be:At the start of the game, roll a combined 2D6 for each Khorne SkullCannon and consult the following chart - 2: The SkullCannon is removed as a casualty 3-7: The SkullCannon may not fire all game 8-11: The SkullCannon may not more at all this game 12: The SkullCannon is removed as a casualty
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Post by strutsagget on Oct 18, 2018 16:31:20 GMT
The End Times ridden monsters combined ride & monster profile was a clever way to fix this as well. Where can I find the rule?
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Post by midnightfox0083 on Oct 18, 2018 16:47:25 GMT
The End Times ridden monsters combined ride & monster profile was a clever way to fix this as well. Where can I find the rule?
There isn't one. It's not a thing that extended past the characters given new End Times rules.
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Post by knoffles on Oct 18, 2018 17:33:17 GMT
Where can I find the rule?
There isn't one. It's not a thing that extended past the characters given new End Times rules.
Things like the undead Mortarchs (however it was spelt) on their big monsters had the combined profiles.
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Post by knoffles on Oct 18, 2018 17:34:47 GMT
Oh and the Bretonnian characters on monsters in KevinC’s updated bretonnian book are also very good examples.
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Post by midnightfox0083 on Oct 18, 2018 17:43:29 GMT
There isn't one. It's not a thing that extended past the characters given new End Times rules.
Things like the undead Mortarchs (however it was spelt) on their big monsters had the combined profiles. So Characters given new End Times rules? ;P
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Post by knoffles on Oct 18, 2018 20:04:52 GMT
Things like the undead Mortarchs (however it was spelt) on their big monsters had the combined profiles. So Characters given new End Times rules? ;P just an example of a specific one for strutsagget 😀
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Post by vulcan on Oct 20, 2018 0:46:16 GMT
They break the versimilitude of a high fantasy, steampunk tech level world that literally used to exist 38,000 years in the future and still had 40K tech showing up in 6th edition? Coming in in 7E like I did, I must have missed that part. Given the lack of mention such things get, I suspect even the people who saw it didn't miss it once it was gone.
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