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Post by avatarofbugman on Aug 3, 2015 22:31:34 GMT
The issue is with other armies. In a dwarf army to go from three ranks of 5 to the ranks of 10 requires twice the points. The Brettonians get to do it for the cost of 3 knights. That's a hell of a discount.
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Post by avatarofbugman on Aug 3, 2015 22:32:57 GMT
I know the main rules, by the way, and the old Brettonian book, just like the current Ogre book, allowed three wide to be the equivalent of 5 wide.
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Post by KevinC on Aug 3, 2015 23:00:47 GMT
Avatar is not about 'cost', its about representing Lance Formation. The old wedge formation is too cumbersome, the the 3-wide buses look stupid. So, to represent Bretonnia's special formation for their knights, they can get horde for being 6 wide.
Pretend the 3-wide formation was never invented.
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Post by avatarofbugman on Aug 3, 2015 23:19:29 GMT
I see your point there, but you also have to see the bigger picture with other armies. I need to spend 225 points on dwarfs to go from regular to horde. A Brettonian player only has to pay points. I see an inter army balance issue here.
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Post by avatarofbugman on Aug 3, 2015 23:26:18 GMT
Only has to pay approximately 75 points is what I meant to say for the brettonians.
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Post by TheREALricksalamone on Aug 4, 2015 2:57:56 GMT
That's why breaking steadfast was too much.
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Post by avatarofbugman on Aug 4, 2015 3:35:57 GMT
Two separate issues. You were complaining about auto include units, etc. earlier in this thread. The way this rule is written is that hordes are auto include for Brettonians. That is a balance issue.
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Post by TheREALricksalamone on Aug 4, 2015 3:44:51 GMT
I think Kevin's aim is to make knights very attractive, yes.
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Post by TheREALricksalamone on Aug 4, 2015 3:46:37 GMT
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Post by avatarofbugman on Aug 4, 2015 11:16:32 GMT
My point was, since it makes no sense not to spend 75 points to do a horde formation, just male that their formation, or make a Brettonian with a lance like the elven spears where they attack from the third row. The way it is worded now screams imbalance. I get the idea, but it comes across wrong the way it is being done now. Nothing that is being said addresses the imbalance issue, and again, anyone out there will spend the 75 points for horde formation. The rule similar to elven spears would be better to address this.
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Post by avatarofbugman on Aug 4, 2015 11:37:52 GMT
By all means, make them more attractive. Do it through rules, absolutely. Doing it by heavily discounting something that no one else has a discount of any kind on is what I see as a problem. Don't look at it as a Brettonian or as someone involved in playtesting. Look at it as someone who just sat down across from a Brettonian player for the first time and hearing the rules. Also, the rules for horde in the book were meant to represent a crushing mass. Many more than a normal unit. Adding three guys does not scream "We were just a regular unit, but now fear our massive numbers."
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Post by sorenj on Aug 4, 2015 12:59:57 GMT
I also had a hard time swallowing the 6-is-a-horde rule at first. However, being in a horde formation only means that a 3'rd rank can make supporting attacks (knights only, no horsies). But since the knights themselves come at quite a high points cost, I don't think its a cheap bargain. My main concern about the rule is that it doesn't really go well with the fluff. Horde formation also works when you're not charging, which isn't in the theme of an all charging army. Secondly as avatarofbugman addresses, the concept of a horde is a big mass of endless troops, not a rule meant for describing elite cavalry.
My suggestion would be to simply allow supporting attacks from an extra rank when charging when lances. This means that if you really want to you can go horde at 10 wide and attack from four ranks on the charge, just like the elven spears. It is a much simpler rule that doesn't tamper with existing rules. Since you seem keen on keeping the impact hits when charging, most players would tend to go for a wider unit anyways.
As a sidenote from an empire player. Many a times have I gasped upon the thought of bringing a horde of knights 3x10. I've never done it because the rules favor small units of 5 knights (more units to deploy and less vulnerable to spells and missile fire) and I think it will be hard to get Bretonnia players to put hordes of knights on the table for the same reasons.
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Post by sorenj on Aug 4, 2015 13:03:07 GMT
-Quick note: The option for giving knights greatweapons instead of lances allows the knights to keep their shields. Empire army book doesn't allow that, so it would be the envy of many men with moustaches.
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Post by avatarofbugman on Aug 4, 2015 13:14:39 GMT
Sorenj hit my suggestion on the nail with his second paragraph. I believe this does what Kevin is really looking for.
Sorenj, I meant that it is a bargain to add 8 more attacks for only 75 points. 8 unit champions in most armies would run you 80 points. Other armies , to get that third rank of 8 attacks would still be spending 100 points or so, and those are squishy points compares to knights with a ward save.
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Post by avatarofbugman on Aug 4, 2015 13:15:30 GMT
Again, for fairness, I am comparing going from three deep non-horde to three deep horde.
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