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Post by Naitsabes on Oct 24, 2017 6:14:28 GMT
our game got postponed. Bummer. On the upside it'll give me more time to paint and think through my list.
I looked into knoffles' suggested slayer reading. I am still not convinced about 'runing up' the lone slayer. Seems a bit like throwing good money after bad. In my particular case he might do better but, normally I would imagine a magic missile ending him as soon as he pokes his nose out from behind whatever terrain feature he was hiding. And, you give up on an extra attack which coupled with the D3 wounds against monsters (plus likely re-roll hatred) seems juicy.
I do like the Master rune of flight idea because it increases his threat range. Seems very clear cut to me that you would only get one attack with it. But, would that carry the D3 against monsters? I think so, 'when attacking monsters' is pretty broad, it doesn't specify in close combat. Unfortunately, the Rune of Flight never explicitly calls the throw an attack. What do you think?
Longer term I think instead of the slayer I will spend the points on more miners etc. But, in the spirit of maximizing painted model percentage, he should probably be in for now.
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Post by knoffles on Oct 25, 2017 16:31:02 GMT
I'm playing on Friday with slayers but running my daemon slayer in the unit. Will let you know how I get on but I agree I'm not sold on running him solo.
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Post by Naitsabes on Nov 11, 2017 23:20:14 GMT
Gather around the hearth, Longbeards, for tales of woes and heroism. Right, I've played another game with my old fashioned dwarfs. This one was going to be against a mighty Ogre horde. My list is above, I was facing an interesting shooty horde. LOTS of leadbelchers, a horde of 18or so bulls with Tyrant and BSB, big unit of maneaters and of course an ironblaster. Basically, it ended up being a long line of Ogres with the horde+maneaters in the middle flanked by the shooters. I deployed pretty similar with my two main units (hammerers and longbeards) together in the middle flanked by shooters. The rangers find a good spot in a venom thicket way off on the right. They did pretty well in a shoot out with a leadbelcher unit and helped by the miners showing up on that flank dealt with the ironblaster. That was the flank that went well. My gyrocopters took the brunt of the shooting. My mistake, I shouldn't have deployed them that far forward. But, I guess at that point I didn't know I was facing a shooty horde of doom due to closed lists. This was pretty crucial since this way they were not available later to redirect charges. The middle was where most blood would be spilled. I pushed my longbeards forward quite a bit and angled them to set up a later flank charge with the hammerers. At this point I still had one gyro on one wound..enough to keep the maneaters away. Like a hungry ogre he still went in with the horde...and rolled high enough for that special ogre charge bonus. It hurt, the Longbeard shield wall buckled. After all the impact hits came 28or so attacks and then the stomps. In return proud King Alfred and his buddies took down a few ogres and what was left of the longbeards held on the Rune of Stoicism. Now it was my turn to counter. The hammerers flanked and went to town. I also threw in the daemon slayer (which was a mistake. maybe he killed an ogre...but he himself was also killed later, 140pts down the drain). I killed seven or so ogres and brought the unit below steadfast. They broke and I ran down the unit including tyrant and BSB. At this point I thought I had the game in the bag. But, I hadn't taken into account how much hangriness can be built into a unit of six leadbelchers! First they passed the panic from the tyrant breaking on Ld7. Then they charged recklessly into the hammerers and after some dice rolling NINE proud hammerers lay mangled on the floor. Next turn the few remaining hammerers beat and broke them but the damage was done. By now the maneaters were upon me. Most of my war machine shooting had gone into them in the previous turn but without too much effect. Over the last two turns or so they cleaned out the remaining longbeards, proud King Alfred (we decided he is still 'stompable' on the shield as his unit type is still infantry, that is right?) and eventually the last of the hammerers with BSB. You'd think I should have been able to get units away, maybe out of charge arc etc. but, those short legs were just too short. Here is King Alfred's last stand: The ogres won handily, by ~400pts or so. So, lessons learned: - preserve the gyrocopters as much as possible, redirecting is that important - hammerers are surprisingly fragile - better deploy towards the side where the miners will show up, this will give them more impact in the game - stomps and impact hits are evil...I think I knew that before I didn't feel totally outclassed. Deleting the huge ogre unit with all the characters felt good. In retrospect, it cost too many bodies to do so due to that ogre charge rule and some hot dice and left me too weak to deal with the maneaters but, it almost worked out. One more line to add to the book of grudges.
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Post by grandmasterwang on Nov 12, 2017 2:58:23 GMT
Gather around the hearth, Longbeards, for tales of woes and heroism. Right, I've played another game with my old fashioned dwarfs. This one was going to be against a mighty Ogre horde. My list is above, I was facing an interesting shooty horde. LOTS of leadbelchers, a horde of 18or so bulls with Tyrant and BSB, big unit of maneaters and of course an ironblaster. Basically, it ended up being a long line of Ogres with the horde+maneaters in the middle flanked by the shooters. I deployed pretty similar with my two main units (hammerers and longbeards) together in the middle flanked by shooters. The rangers find a good spot in a venom thicket way off on the right. They did pretty well in a shoot out with a leadbelcher unit and helped by the miners showing up on that flank dealt with the ironblaster. That was the flank that went well. My gyrocopters took the brunt of the shooting. My mistake, I shouldn't have deployed them that far forward. But, I guess at that point I didn't know I was facing a shooty horde of doom due to closed lists. This was pretty crucial since this way they were not available later to redirect charges. The middle was where most blood would be spilled. I pushed my longbeards forward quite a bit and angled them to set up a later flank charge with the hammerers. At this point I still had one gyro on one wound..enough to keep the maneaters away. Like a hungry ogre he still went in with the horde...and rolled high enough for that special ogre charge bonus. It hurt, the Longbeard shield wall buckled. After all the impact hits came 28or so attacks and then the stomps. In return proud King Alfred and his buddies took down a few ogres and what was left of the longbeards held on the Rune of Stoicism. Now it was my turn to counter. The hammerers flanked and went to town. I also threw in the daemon slayer (which was a mistake. maybe he killed an ogre...but he himself was also killed later, 140pts down the drain). I killed seven or so ogres and brought the unit below steadfast. They broke and I ran down the unit including tyrant and BSB. At this point I thought I had the game in the bag. But, I hadn't taken into account how much hangriness can be built into a unit of six leadbelchers! First they passed the panic from the tyrant breaking on Ld7. Then they charged recklessly into the hammerers and after some dice rolling NINE proud hammerers lay mangled on the floor. Next turn the few remaining hammerers beat and broke them but the damage was done. By now the maneaters were upon me. Most of my war machine shooting had gone into them in the previous turn but without too much effect. Over the last two turns or so they cleaned out the remaining longbeards, proud King Alfred (we decided he is still 'stompable' on the shield as his unit type is still infantry, that is right?) and eventually the last of the hammerers with BSB. You'd think I should have been able to get units away, maybe out of charge arc etc. but, those short legs were just too short. Here is King Alfred's last stand: The ogres won handily, by ~400pts or so. So, lessons learned: - preserve the gyrocopters as much as possible, redirecting is that important - hammerers are surprisingly fragile - better deploy towards the side where the miners will show up, this will give them more impact in the game - stomps and impact hits are evil...I think I knew that before I didn't feel totally outclassed. Deleting the huge ogre unit with all the characters felt good. In retrospect, it cost too many bodies to do so due to that ogre charge rule and some hot dice and left me too weak to deal with the maneaters but, it almost worked out. One more line to add to the book of grudges. Dwarfs facing an Ogre gunline I've always wanted to play vs an Ogre Gunline but no one I know has the models. Enjoyed the report and was surprised as the Ogre comeback after you took his main unit down. Also love the green dwarf cloaks on the battlefield. They look really good.
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Post by mottdon on Nov 12, 2017 3:48:52 GMT
Yeah, taking huge Ogre hordes isn't the coolest thing to do. That trying to go for points denial at it's best. Sorry on your loss, but still sounds like a good game. You are correct in assuming that Lord on Shieldbearers is still subject to Stomps. And yes, Hammerers ARE incredibly fragile. Tons of hitting power, for very little save. Now, had you done what he did and take 40 Hammerers...
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Post by Naitsabes on Nov 12, 2017 5:26:37 GMT
cheers for the comments, guys. I am not too bitter about the huge ogre unit. It wasn't the netlist gutstar, just bulls with extra hand weapon. Also, I beat that unit down quite handily. I just wasn't able to control the maneaters afterwards. I made them test once on their stubborn 8. had they failed I would have won the game. Anyway, this was the same guy whose beastmen I beat before so good to see it swinging back and forth.
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Post by mottdon on Nov 12, 2017 12:02:05 GMT
That's a great, sportsman's attitude! Good job!
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Post by knoffles on Nov 13, 2017 12:47:00 GMT
Looks like a good game. Both armies looked sweet in the photos too. I've played ogres a fair few times and I've never seen a unit that size. It's rather intimidating and I don't think I'd be able to resist attacking it. You did well deleting it and sounds like you were unlucky to not win. Did he bring any sabre cats? Those things are a total pain. Mottdon was spot on on the king being subject to stomps. With regards to the hammerers, even having 5 more makes a difference. All GW dwarves are rather fragile.
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Post by mottdon on Nov 13, 2017 13:41:00 GMT
Well, the reason he was running them 6 wide was so that he could get the horde formation extra attacks. That IS a ton of points to sink into one unit, but looks crazy intimidating. I'd like to see them go up against a horde of Trolls with Throgg. That would look awesome!
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Post by Naitsabes on Nov 13, 2017 18:41:41 GMT
no sabre cats, no magic (seriously, as soon as people hear they are playing against dwarfs they just leave it all out, works for me), the smallest ogre units were the leadbelchers at six models each.
it was basically a freight train coming straight at me and I almost derailed it, nimbly dancing dwarf that I am.
I agree, some more hammerers would be good but, not an option to get more of these models. I am wondering what to add after dropping the slayer lord. A war machine would be the easy answer but, it'll be even more tempting then to castle up. What if I pump up the unit of rangers to a respectable size and just use them as another combat block (with fancy deployment rule)? I guess they are a bit pricey point-wise.
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Post by knoffles on Nov 13, 2017 18:45:39 GMT
Look at them this way, rangers are pretty much (possibly even the same - not near my book at present) points as quarrellers with GWs. For that you get throwing axes and scout for free (or almost. Damn I need to start having the book to hand before posting).
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Post by mottdon on Nov 13, 2017 19:37:24 GMT
Almost the same. The Ranger's Champ is BS4 wereas everything else is BS3. The Quarreller's Champ as two base CC attacks though. That's the only difference in their stat line (Unless you take Joseph Bugman and upgrade the Rangers to Bugman's Rangers.) The big differences is as knoffles states, Scout and Throwing Axes, but you can also take Shields as an extra degree of protection from shooting. Quarrellers have to take either Shields or GWs.
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Post by mottdon on Nov 13, 2017 19:45:13 GMT
Personally, I think that Rangers are worth it. They force your opponent to deal with them. They can't be outrun because they can shoot. They are hard to deal with in combat because of GWs. They work well with Miners coming in from a rear, and front lines pushing up quickly (Especially with a Strollaz Rune or two), allowing dual charges (from Dwarfs!) or simply boxing your opponents in. You should be guaranteed a flank or rear charge or two. They also allow you to fully utilize a Gyrocopter's Vanguard rule with some strategic scouting placement. One of the Dwarf army's greatest weaknesses is movement. They help you overcome that. It's huge.
AoW makes some good Ranger alternative models. They come 20 to a box so you get your money's worth. They don't rank up well though - their only downside, IMO.
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Post by Naitsabes on Nov 17, 2017 23:02:34 GMT
well, rangers are 14pts, great weapon warriors 10pts. that is quite a hefty difference (true, quarrelers with GW are also 14). if I bring 25ish rangers that's 15 x-bow I am paying for but likely not using. still pretty set on them after thinking about this some more. Castling is for other dwarfs. Let me tell you another tale of little woe and lots of heroism: This game was against a different opponent, he brought a rather themed mono-khorne list (I hope these spellbreaking runes don't have an expiration date, 'cause I ain't using them.) I brought the same list as before, he had (all khorne all the time): - daemon prince of doom but, no wings - bsb - 8 knights - 2x 16 warriors with halberds - 32(?) marauders with flails - a chariot - 4 skullcrusher - hellcannon All of them (except DP and hellcannon) were frothing from their frenzied mouths and there were no warhounds so that I wanted to use to my advantage. I deployed somewhat un-dwarfy. I had the cannon way on the left flank, together with the rangers and a gyrocopter. Then the rest of my army on the right half of my deployment zone, longbeards and hammerers close together. The cannon forced him to make some tough deployment decisions and awkward movement to prevent juicy flank shots into the knights or skullcrushers. On my left, the scouts kept the hellcannon a busy by fleeing charges, running far and rallying beautifully. Meanwhile my cannon struggled to get through ablative handlers and ward but eventually brought the hellcannon down to one wound. Then the rangers in an act of utmost defiance and dwarfiness, with the skullcrushers barreling down towards them, used their last shooting phase to bring the hellcannon down. Right, the skullcrushers. So, he decided not to have them wheel towards my right (where most of my army was) concerned about that cannon flank shoot. Instead he moved forward, sometimes march blocked from a pesky gyrocopter. Finally, frustrated and angry they wheeled towards my left and by the end of the game had taken out rangers and cannon. that still seemed like a good deal to me, don't want to picture the horrible things these four guys could have done to my combat troops. On my right, I moved my combat blocks forward, the longbeards a bit more aggressively, trying to pull off the same 'hold with longbeards, smash with hammerers' move like in the game before. But, a long bomb charge brought the chaos knights into the hammerers (while the daemon prince failed). This was bloody but, eventually the hammerers prevailed. I also had to throw away a gyrocopter to keep the daemon prince away long enough. The miners showed up way on the right and one warriors unit turned around to deal with them (and this they did...shudder), but this unit crucially included the BSB who now wasn't around to keep the frenzy in check. And, promptly, the marauders went mad and rolled an 11 to make their charge into my Longbeards. They did some damage but, not horribly so due to shieldwall, and in return the longbeards and their good King Alfred extracted a heavy toll. The marauders broke, the longbeards ran them down on pursuit and on my turn gloriously charged into the other unit of chaos warriors. While these were of sterner stuff than the marauders, King Alfred would not be denied and eventually they broke and were run down. By now good King Alfred was in the enemy deployment zone, presumably calmly lighting his pipe knowing there was nobody left to challenge them anywhere close. so, that was the glorious part. the woeful bit was his daemon prince killing stuff left and right. Due to some sloppy play on my part the daemonslayer (completely mis-named if you ask me) stumbled into the daemon princes pursuit and was a nice slingshot then for that prince to get into my next unit..thunderers I think. Eventually that prince got into combat with my hammerers and brought down the BSB. Luckily the game ended before he could finish off the unit. We tallied up and it was a draw. Great game and I was very happy with the way my army performed. Lessons: - gyrocopters can be awesome when there is no shooting. the steam guns brought down surprisingly many chaos warriors while at the same time march blocking. then there was this crucial charge re-direct of the daemon prince. wondering if giving one vanguard would be worth it. they seem pretty fast already to me - daemon slayer. that guy is utterly useless. If I had to bring him again I'd put him in a far corner to sharpen his axe and sit around and not ruin my win. I need to paint up more dwarfs so he can retire for good - daemon princes are silly. my opponent was fair enough to not put wings on the thing so he could at least be redirected. still, at one point I had the opportunity for an easy charge with the hammerers+BSB into the daemon prince flank. I decided against it and I think this was the right decision. The 'unbreakable' makes him invulnerable, he would have chewed through my guys fast. We both agreed to houserule daemon princes to 'unstable' from this point forward. Here is one dodgy picture of the beast...he is pretty, admittedly. Anyway, good times in the hold, this draw felt like a win to me. Hoping for another game on Sunday against another 'surprise' army. will keep you posted.
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Post by knoffles on Nov 18, 2017 9:29:05 GMT
Sounded like another good game. Gyros are excellent. Like in this game I've had 1 almost single handedly take down 30 nurgle warriors. Though the fewer models left in the unit, the less effective they become. Can you remember the loadouts of his DP was it mark of Khorne to fit in with the rest of the army? Final question, is your slayer naked (in terms of runes)?
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