Buxe
Full Member
Posts: 135
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Post by Buxe on Jul 13, 2022 11:08:59 GMT
-----------Does this mean we might see Snake-men in the Old World??!! It'd honestly be great if this was a teaser for a Hinterlands of Khuresh army list in TOW down the line, involving snakemen as either a neutral or Chaotic counterpart to Lizardmen, but whether GW will see this opportunity remains to be seen. They've had a good track record of missing out on similar opportunities thus far. A bit off topic...I'm not sure I'm a big fan of all kinds of new factions showing up. Firstly, I don't see which gaming addition they are going to add to the game. Aren't the different playstyles already represented by the current factions? Secondly, how will adding more factions from outside the Old World (="Europe") affect the feeling of the game "The Old World". Will GW be able to give Asian, Arab or African inspired factions the same stereotype tongue-in-cheek treatment Germany and France got with Empire and Bretonia in these PC-times? Will GW kick off a shitstorm buy giving them the same treatment? Or will the new factions just be some bland generic factions which could be from any other fantasy setting? Thirdly, it is already difficult to explain fluff wise why for instance Dwarfs and Lizardmen should engage in a battle with each other. So how to explain why vast armies from all factions would travel across the whole world to attack someone unless all said factions are expansive colonial empires? Resulting in more blandness... I really hope GW will not turn the Old World into a tabletop version of D&D, World of Warcraft or some other generic fantasy setting, but keep the gritty dark tongue-in-cheek adaption of real life national stereotypes.
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Post by lordofskullpass on Jul 13, 2022 13:29:46 GMT
A bit off topic...I'm not sure I'm a big fan of all kinds of new factions showing up. Firstly, I don't see which gaming addition they are going to add to the game. Aren't the different playstyles already represented by the current factions? I'm sure GW could easily think of new playstyles for new factions, there is no fixed cap on the number of playstyles Warhammer can have. In particular more non-human factions like Khuresh, Fimir, Halflings and/or Gnomes, Gnoblar Hordes e.t.c would give the rules writers more mechanics to play with. I'm writing rules for most of these and others myself and I've enjoyed creating different playstyles for them as a challenge. Secondly, how will adding more factions from outside the Old World (="Europe") affect the feeling of the game "The Old World". Will GW be able to give Asian, Arab or African inspired factions the same stereotype tongue-in-cheek treatment Germany and France got with Empire and Bretonnia in these PC-times? Will GW kick off a shitstorm buy giving them the same treatment? Or will the new factions just be some bland generic factions which could be from any other fantasy setting? I wouldn't say the Empire and Bretonnia are as tongue-in-cheek now as they used to be in 5th Edition and previous, because 6th Edition erased a lot of the comedy from human factions in an effort to make the world darker. There is a degree of pettiness in the Empire and disregard for the poor in Bretonnia, but these were chosen as the stereotypes of the historical equivalents of modern nations, rather than the modern nations themselves, and are not as tongue-in-cheek as other factions to avoid causing offence. You don't see Imperials marching in goose-step, for example, or the Bretonnians surrendering without a fight. Therefore Cathay, Kislev and any other new human factions would likely follow tropes of ancient and medieval civilisations to continue that trend, rather than modern/20th Century national tropes like Communist China or Soviet Russia. Additionally I've noticed that the most tongue-in-cheek factions are the non-human Greenskins, Ogres and Skaven for a reason, to provide the comic-relief without offending any real-life human peoples or triggering the wokists. None of this means From what I can tell 'The Old World' in this case refers to the Warhammer World as a whole, in a time before the End Times and AoS, not the Warhammer Old World which is, as you say, just the continent that represents Europe, because they've already said both Kislev and Cathay are making an appearance in line with Warhammer III Total War. Not to mention that restricting the setting to just the European Old World would mean the exclusion of some of the most popular factions - Tomb Kings, Lizardmen, Dark Elves e.t.c Thirdly, it is already difficult to explain fluff wise why for instance Dwarfs and Lizardmen should engage in a battle with each other. So how to explain why vast armies from all factions would travel across the whole world to attack someone unless all said factions are expansive colonial empires? Resulting in more blandness... There are good reasons for Dwarfs and Lizardmen to fight each other - the main example would be a Dwarf naval force landing in Lustria to steal treasure from the ruined Temple-Cities. The aftermath of such a Campaign could easily prompt a Slann to teleport a Lizardman army into the Old World to attack some Dwarfs that had stolen an important artefact of the Old Ones. If you take Warhammer: Total War to be entirely canon then Lizardmen have a presence in Albion, if they could get there then they could easily teleport to other regions of the world as well. To be honest most of the factions in the Warhammer World are already colonial empires - Dwarfs, Norse, Empire, Bretonnia, Estalia, Tilea and Skaven are very colonial and navigate the world via ships, tunnels or both regularly. High Elves and Dark Elves also have powerful fleets that regularly see service. Greenskins and Vampires spend more time in the Old World than anywhere else, but have been known to build ramshackle fleets sometimes to raid, pillage or even conquer as Grom the Paunch did for instance. Tomb Kings have marched as far north as the World's Edge Mountains to recover stuff that was stolen from them. Beastmen are prevalent all over the Warhammer World if you read their 6th Edition book. Wood Elves can use the Worldroots to reach other areas of the world if need be - perhaps an enclave is fleeing a Beastman invasion despoiling their forests and looking for a new forest elsewhere in the world to set up a new base? I certainly wouldn't put it past Araby or Cathay to develop colonial fleets either, both being powerful nations with a thirst to expand. It's pretty easy to develop reasons for different factions to fight each other providing you keep to their existing lore and don't devise anything completely lore-breaking. I really hope GW will not turn the Old World into a tabletop version of D&D, World of Warcraft or some other generic fantasy setting, but keep the gritty dark tongue-in-cheek adaption of real life national stereotypes. It's unlikely that will happen, those other settings don't have nearly as much uniqueness or depth in their background as Warhammer has. D&D just follows the base fantasy tropes 9 times out of 10, and Warcraft is a shallow ripoff of Warhammer with enough D&D-style seasoning to avoid lawsuits.
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Post by Grimfang Gogulk on Jul 13, 2022 20:51:50 GMT
I can understand the concerns, but don´t see those non-Old World factions being added too soon anyways. like Southland, Nippon and all kind of things.. And in the Blood Bowl World, I think the humour is more accepted than the proper WFB world, no? So, a little concerned as well, but not that much, yet..
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Post by lordofskullpass on Jul 14, 2022 7:46:06 GMT
I can understand the concerns, but don´t see those non-Old World factions being added too soon anyways. like Southland, Nippon and all kind of things.. And in the Blood Bowl World, I think the humour is more accepted than the proper WFB world, no? So, a little concerned as well, but not that much, yet.. I agree it's very unlikely we'll see most of those new factions for a while, because when TOW drops they'll release new rules for the 15 current factions first, probably as per those two big army list books they released for Horus Heresy, though I can see them releasing models for Kislev and Cathay early on since Total War has become obsessed with them. And yes, Blood Bowl is where most of the humour in Warhammer Fantasy is concentrated, if GW want to make something daft and funny it'll likely be a Blood Bowl team or a Big Guy rather than a unit for TOW.
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Post by Grimfang Gogulk on Jul 14, 2022 8:56:03 GMT
Yeah. I actually think they will push Kislev and whatnot in, before all older factions get their stuff. To get new - and old, players, buy new minis from something fresh. Kinda makes sense to get money from something that have not or barely not had models. And it will frustrate players that don´t their old army re-done before that.. (Damn I had to wait for my Space Wolves in 3rd Ed 40k........) Not very interested in those human factions myself.. I honestly wonder if Kislev will even be around, after my Orcs beat them up in Blood Bowl 2 so bad I have enevr seen anything like it.. We wen´t medieval on their asses... Yupp.
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Post by lordofskullpass on Jul 14, 2022 14:07:55 GMT
Yeah. I actually think they will push Kislev and whatnot in, before all older factions get their stuff. To get new - and old, players, buy new minis from something fresh. Kinda makes sense to get money from something that have not or barely not had models. And it will frustrate players that don´t their old army re-done before that.. (Damn I had to wait for my Space Wolves in 3rd Ed 40k........) Not very interested in those human factions myself.. I honestly wonder if Kislev will even be around, after my Orcs beat them up in Blood Bowl 2 so bad I have enevr seen anything like it.. We wen´t medieval on their asses... Yupp. Neither am I, I have no interest in either Medieval Russia or Ancient-Medieval China so I won't be falling for such a ploy if GW tries it. I do actually wonder if a new range of Kislev models will make much of a splash at all now, given the associations with Russia and, inadvertently, association with Putin's nationalism? Now if they released an Albion army, featuring proper Ancient Brythonic Celtic Warriors and associated Brythonic mythological units, not either backward cave-dwellers or Gaelic Highlander Braveheart nonsense, it'd be a different story
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Post by knoffles on Jul 15, 2022 17:51:16 GMT
Not a new release but when did ogre maneaters get discontinued?
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Post by thegoat on Jul 15, 2022 22:07:36 GMT
Not a new release but when did ogre maneaters get discontinued? They base their business model on exploiting people's "fear of missing out". Then they neglect to tell people when products are being discontinued. Does anybody else see a problem here?
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Buxe
Full Member
Posts: 135
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Post by Buxe on Jul 16, 2022 9:39:01 GMT
Not a new release but when did ogre maneaters get discontinued? Really?! Well glad I bought them "just in case" a couple of months ago then...
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Post by Grimfang Gogulk on Jul 16, 2022 9:59:06 GMT
Yeah. I actually think they will push Kislev and whatnot in, before all older factions get their stuff. To get new - and old, players, buy new minis from something fresh. Kinda makes sense to get money from something that have not or barely not had models. And it will frustrate players that don´t their old army re-done before that.. (Damn I had to wait for my Space Wolves in 3rd Ed 40k........) Not very interested in those human factions myself.. I honestly wonder if Kislev will even be around, after my Orcs beat them up in Blood Bowl 2 so bad I have enevr seen anything like it.. We wen´t medieval on their asses... Yupp. Neither am I, I have no interest in either Medieval Russia or Ancient-Medieval China so I won't be falling for such a ploy if GW tries it. I do actually wonder if a new range of Kislev models will make much of a splash at all now, given the associations with Russia and, inadvertently, association with Putin's nationalism? Now if they released an Albion army, featuring proper Ancient Brythonic Celtic Warriors and associated Brythonic mythological units, not either backward cave-dwellers or Gaelic Highlander Braveheart nonsense, it'd be a different story
Honestly, I hope they skip Kislev.. Atleast for now. Not in the mood to see that for the reasons..
Some Celtic stuff would be interesting, I am all for that. Embarrassinly, I am almost at the level in knowledge about those, as the people making Prince of Thieves.. So Not at all. lol - but haven´t the Dwarfs, somewhat got some stuff from them? As well as Scottish and Norse stuff? Or maybe I am wrong.
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Post by thegoat on Jul 16, 2022 19:14:01 GMT
Some Celtic stuff would be interesting, ... but haven´t the Dwarfs, somewhat got some stuff from them? As well as Scottish and Norse stuff? Or maybe I am wrong. Citadel had a line of Norse Dwarfs back in 3rd edition days. I don't think warhammer dwarfs were ever themed with Celtic fluff. But there is plenty of WFB fluff I haven't read. I'm pumped for the Kislev release. The classic Kislev units and fluff are as much based on medieval Ukrainian and Polish people as Russia. I think the Total War games might have made them more clearly Rus. I haven't played those games. I'm not sure. Cathay on the other hand, I don't care about them at all. What they have shown off makes them feel like High Elves junor. I'd much rather play High Elves. They should have taken Cathay in another direction with scrub peasant human troops and middle level "undead" terracotta infantry. And no flying lantern sky boats. edit: There seems to be a script blocking certain adjective words for people who used to live in USSR.
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Post by Grimfang Gogulk on Jul 16, 2022 21:04:26 GMT
Well, like i said, i am pretty much clueless, really, about celtic stuff.. But it was some of the war paints and stuff. I might be totall wrong. Kislev has probably been all over the place, but the Empire used to have those Winged Lancers which is very much Polish. Cossacks would be Ukrainian of course. I am all for that. trash, i rather see that go F itself. But I am raised during the Cold War, right next to that Communist F PoS country and our whole society is .. Was, and then is again, based around a shitbag country threating its smaller neightbours becuase they are bullying Fs. So I am biased.
Agreed on Cathay. Feels like they just tries to suck the D of the potentially massive market over there, full off potential customers that maybe wants to play their parody version of their S-bag contry on the tabletop. Shit reason in my humble opinion. Or atleast make an effort of something cool other thana lame shit attempt at milking that huge market.. Yeah, some more pop culture version of ancient China would have made me feel more acceptable. But that is me.
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Post by lordofskullpass on Jul 17, 2022 13:40:36 GMT
@grimfang Gogulk thegoat The Dwarf Slayers definitely have similarities to Celtic Fanatics as well as Viking Berserkers and Klingons, that’s the main Celtic aspect of the Dawi culture. Also some people portray Warhammer Dwarfs as having Scottish accents, but personally I feel they’ve played too much Warcraft. I’ve always seen the Dwarfs as grumpy but doughty Northern English, and was pleased to see that was how Warhammer: Total War viewed them too. I agree that Dwarfs are more Saxon and Viking than Celtic, hence my desire to see Albion properly fleshed out as Fantasy Celts rather than cavepeople. Easily the best interpretation of Albion I’ve seen thus far is this chap’s artwork: eefl.freeforums.net/thread/1311/albion-concept-artwork-matthew-klaasWhich has inspired my own Albion army list: eefl.freeforums.net/thread/2663/warhammer-albion-playtest-army-draft
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Post by Grimfang Gogulk on Jul 17, 2022 13:54:01 GMT
I guess. I am from Scandinavia so recognize alot of the Norse stuff and get WTF-moments when people regard them as Scottish.. But they have alot of influence from all that so it kinda, makes sense. I think? I was a Dwarf-player in 6th Ed, massive "Longbeard"-army (I had two big units becuase I love those metal models from 6th Ed) - but these days, switching to Greenskins later (played them back in 2nd Ed Farty K and went back to that big love that is Orks/Orcs) - I just wanna bash the shit out of the grumpy, annoying, stunty little Fs.. So it does not really matter where they come from, background-wise.. Hehe. But what matters is, how much ale and gold they have to loot.. And how many of them greedy, whinhy little hairy things I can seel to Goblins and Skaven for even more gold.. (Hoping to get into many Book of Grudges here! ) I´ll have a look at your stuff. Just need coffee.. ^^
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Post by Crazy_Dokta on Jul 17, 2022 18:34:42 GMT
Let us not slide into political mud, mates.
Warhammer isn't a historical wargame, right? Also there a no "Kremlin hand/China commie/<...>" etc here. We have numerous invented (made-up) forces and some of them inspired by real cultures instead. Whether we like it or not. And these associations always will be. Whether we like it or not. Cathay, Nippon, Kislev, Albion, Empire and Bretonnia, Estalia <...> Is it wrong GW made it up (and use)? Definitely not. It's much better to collect "such forces inspired by smth" rather than "just regular elf/dwarf/orc stuff", I guess.
Should GW change WFB lore to please "current agenda"? Something like "Ouch, there are New Cold War era right now, we shouldn't make Kislev with it's Mr.Putin's Bear-riders". That's stupid. If any of you have troubles with Kislev, then you may interpreted Kislev as Slavic ones (as it was intended). Or just ignore it.
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